Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-13-2016, 10:59 AM   #61
Harald387
 
Harald387's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ottawa, ON, CA
Default Re: What kind of ambient cold damage would near absolute zero do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Should GMs be similarly stringent with NPCs? How about technology? Are they deprived of rational al consequences too, or just PCs?

If a hundred pounds of corrosive acid appears, how DOESN'T it cause damage?
As someone else pointed out, if you want to make a hundred pounds of damaging corrosive acid appear, you pay for that effect. That is, you buy a Corrosive Innate Attack that's persistent and cyclic and has a wide area of effect. 'Create' is not the power you buy for doing that with. Similarly, if you want to freeze people to death, you again pay for that effect and buy your non-incendiary Burning Innate Attack with a freezing hazard.

Nothing in those rules is 'depriving' anything of 'rational consequences'. The rules aren't saying that. The rules *do* say that if you want something that does damage, it isn't done with Temperature Control, or Create, and needs to be modeled with Innate Attack instead. Trust me, IA is *more* than versatile enough to cover all of your damage-dealing needs.
Harald387 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2016, 11:28 AM   #62
Otaku
 
Otaku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
Default Re: What kind of ambient cold damage would near absolute zero do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Now, my question is, since you've died by freezing to death, if you go to Hell, at some point shouldn't you be really comfortable?
What version of Hell?

Given that the power being discussed (such a high level of Temperature Control, apparently on beings that are "healed by cold"), if this is a stereotypical high fantasy or Supers setting... nope. The joke might actually be everyone gets to this wonderful, comfortable plane of existence, but because you froze to death you're still in agony about "burning alive!" because somehow you've been "set" to that incredible cold as your norm. Again, for more of a lighthearted effect. In a remotely serious setting, even with those fantastic elements it will make no difference (your body isn't in Hell anyway) or might send you to an "ice Hell" if one exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
They're not 'contrived limits'; they're an acknowledgment that the cost of the power doesn't include the cost of the innate attack, and that the power's price isn't balanced with 'hurting people' in mind.

If you want to lower the temperature of an area, and simultaneously damage the people in that area, buy Innate Attack and Temperature Control both. Link them. Now you have Temperature Control and its "logical consequences", at a price that's balanced for gameplay.

If you want to model creating hundreds of pounds of corrosive acid with Create, and want to damage people, buy Innate Attack with a big area effect, probably one or both of cyclic and persistent, and call it a day.

I'd still give any player asking to buy 'enough temperature control to go to absolute zero' the side-eye, whether he intended to (or whether I let him) hurt people or not, because the game doesn't model temperatures that low very well. Quite frankly, theoretical physics doesn't model temperatures that low all THAT well.
This does seem like a solid (pardon the pun) point. At first I thought it might not be so bad. Unless I goofed and temperature is the one place where GURPS Basic Set: Characters is not using imperial units, to take an area already at 32º F (the freezing point of water) down to -459.67ºF (absolute zero) requires 25 levels of Temperature Control. Being able to reliably handle the heat in most locals even during the height of summer while keeping the numbers easy means 30 levels... that is 150 points.

Then I remembered that was Temperature Control, which included heating things up as well. How about some Limitations mentioned at the end of the entry for Temeprature Control on p. B93? Now we can get Temperature Control (Cold, -50%; Psychokinetic, -10%; -60%) dropping it to 2 points/level, or 60 points.

Yes your range is only 10 yards, with the area of effect having only a 2 hex radius. If you can carry any weapon that can immobilize the target, attack them while they are in a vehicle, etc. they are a goner. Sure you can bore someone to death with a drill if they are nearly immobile as well, but this is a "I catch him at a stop light for an autokill from 30 feet away and leave such a mess they are at -10xHP" level of power.

Properly modeling the effects of temperatures this low on the environment would also be a hassle. Just seems easier for the GM (and thus the entire group) to only allow enough levels of Temperature Control to lower the local temperature to something that can naturally be found on Earth. I mean as a general guideline. If someone wants to freeze people quickly, link the appropriate Innate Attack (having your body temperature drop by 20 points per second is going to KO and then kill you pretty quick anyway, isn't it?)?
__________________
My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)
Otaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2016, 12:03 PM   #63
Culture20
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Default Re: What kind of ambient cold damage would near absolute zero do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
As someone else pointed out, if you want to make a hundred pounds of damaging corrosive acid appear, you pay for that effect. That is, you buy a Corrosive Innate Attack that's persistent and cyclic and has a wide area of effect. 'Create' is not the power you buy for doing that with. Similarly, if you want to freeze people to death, you again pay for that effect and buy your non-incendiary Burning Innate Attack with a freezing hazard.

Nothing in those rules is 'depriving' anything of 'rational consequences'. The rules aren't saying that. The rules *do* say that if you want something that does damage, it isn't done with Temperature Control, or Create, and needs to be modeled with Innate Attack instead. Trust me, IA is *more* than versatile enough to cover all of your damage-dealing needs.
Then Temperature Control should not exist, as it can always be used to cause some sort of indirect damage (just not at combat-speed), and the only other use would be to change temperature to be comfortable which is was Temperature Tolerance (Area) would be for.
Culture20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2016, 03:29 PM   #64
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: What kind of ambient cold damage would near absolute zero do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
As someone else pointed out, if you want to make a hundred pounds of damaging corrosive acid appear, you pay for that effect. That is, you buy a Corrosive Innate Attack that's persistent and cyclic and has a wide area of effect. 'Create' is not the power you buy for doing that with. Similarly, if you want to freeze people to death, you again pay for that effect and buy your non-incendiary Burning Innate Attack with a freezing hazard.
Powers, page 93, allows you to use Create to do the very case of corrosive acid you suggest, although in that case it doesn't have cycles (using the case of toxic substances below, however, implies you could get away with cycles, so long as total damage doesn't exceed 1d/level). Create Cold would presumably follow the guidelines for "hazardous energy."

I do agree Temperature Control isn't appropriate for dealing damage, however.
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2016, 07:42 PM   #65
Donny Brook
 
Donny Brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Snoopy's basement
Default Re: What kind of ambient cold damage would near absolute zero do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
As someone else pointed out, if you want to make a hundred pounds of damaging corrosive acid appear, you pay for that effect. That is, you buy a Corrosive Innate Attack that's persistent and cyclic and has a wide area of effect. 'Create' is not the power you buy for doing that with.
What about Snatcher? If I can Snatch in a hundred pounds of corrosive acid, does that acid have the normal properties of acid? If Create creates a special kind of non-acid acid, does Snatcher do the same?

\[/QUOTE]
Donny Brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2016, 07:52 PM   #66
Otaku
 
Otaku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
Default Re: What kind of ambient cold damage would near absolute zero do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
What about Snatcher? If I can Snatch in a hundred pounds of corrosive acid, does that acid have the normal properties of acid? If Create creates a special kind of non-acid acid, does Snatcher do the same?
Perhaps it would be wise to wait until Harald387 answered the post before yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Powers, page 93, allows you to use Create to do the very case of corrosive acid you suggest, although in that case it doesn't have cycles (using the case of toxic substances below, however, implies you could get away with cycles, so long as total damage doesn't exceed 1d/level). Create Cold would presumably follow the guidelines for "hazardous energy."

I do agree Temperature Control isn't appropriate for dealing damage, however.
If you'd like I can take a stab at it though.

Snatcher is priced (and structured) for you to use it to grab weapons.

Create actually is according to what Varyon said.

The one that doesn't seem to be is Temperature Control, though this is debatable, hence us having a discussion about it. We know it isn't designed to affect people directly, and we know that using it to bring down the temperature of an area to create a kind of environment that people have never really experienced in the flesh or at this scale before, is prone to create a lot of headaches. Maybe these things aren't an issue for you, but they definitely give me pause, and add enough complications to include whether or not there should be an extra GM note in the Basic entry for it.
__________________
My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)
Otaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
powers

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.