[Star Trek like] number of planets and sapients

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by maximara

Medical nanotechnology - uh where do we actually see this?

TNG "Evolution" -- Wesley famously almost destroys the Enterprise with a science experiment gone wrong. In this case, he'd borrowed two medical nanites. (Doctor Crusher was the one doing the briefing on them, since they were her toys. The nanites are routinely kept around, in this case stored in an inactive state, until they're needed. Wesley didn't invent the nanites -- they were off-the-shelf supplies until they starting evolving from the plot device the Enterprise was investigating.)

When the Borg thing gets going, Dr. Crusher suggests adapting some nanites to use as a weapon against the Collective.

DS9: DS9 crew get captured by one side of a war (the Ennis vs the Not-Ennis); some of these people are oddly healthy and in fact, they can't die, because they keep getting regenerated. Bashir investigates to learn about the artificial microbes that infest them; he draws an analogy with Federation medical nanites (which of course aren't this good).

VOY: The Doctor designs some custom nanites to identify unusual DNA patterns to help solve a murder case onboard. Seven of Nine's nanites occasionally get repurposed for various reasons, but of course that's Borg technology. But then, it shows the Federation isn't entirely unfamiliar with nanotech.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

TNG "Evolution" -- Wesley famously almost destroys the Enterprise with a science experiment gone wrong. In this case, he'd borrowed two medical nanites. (Doctor Crusher was the one doing the briefing on them, since they were her toys. The nanites are routinely kept around, in this case stored in an inactive state, until they're needed. Wesley didn't invent the nanites -- they were off-the-shelf supplies until they starting evolving from the plot device the Enterprise was investigating.)

When the Borg thing gets going, Dr. Crusher suggests adapting some nanites to use as a weapon against the Collective.

DS9: DS9 crew get captured by one side of a war (the Ennis vs the Not-Ennis); some of these people are oddly healthy and in fact, they can't die, because they keep getting regenerated. Bashir investigates to learn about the artificial microbes that infest them; he draws an analogy with Federation medical nanites (which of course aren't this good).

VOY: The Doctor designs some custom nanites to identify unusual DNA patterns to help solve a murder case onboard. Seven of Nine's nanites occasionally get repurposed for various reasons, but of course that's Borg technology. But then, it shows the Federation isn't entirely unfamiliar with nanotech.

Ah but the reason I forgot about these is the constancy issue. If the Federation has medical nanites this good why don't we see them used more?

[Flyndaran]

Maybe they are. It's just that they're part of how future doctors heal everyone so fast and so well.

[AlexanderHowl]

That would explain the rapid regrowth of a kidney from a pill in Star Trek IV.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

A reminder when I talk about Star Trek TL I am referring to Federation only TL. There are civilizations with higher TLs out there (Kirk keeps running into them in the TOS era) but let's keep those off the table as it just confuses the issue

.

The Romulans don't have a higher technology. They have a divergent technology, at least at first but it's roughly equivalent.

The Universal translator is a Mental Translator (TL12^) per TOS' Metamorphosis: "This device instantaneously compares the frequency of brainwave patterns, selects those ideas and concepts it recognises, and then provides the necessary grammar." So clearly superscience.

But they also have translator programs. They have in fact run into situations where they had to take an hour to gather enough information to translate a language.

In TOS per "Trouble with Tribbles" the food is transported by something akin to a conveyer system (TL6 to 7) rather then a Food Factory (TL11-12) which "uses any biological substance (grass, meat, appropriate chemicals) into edible food, removing toxins and harmful microorganisms while adding vitamins and nutrients." In otherwords a would Food Factory have broken down the Tribbles and produced normal foodstuff. TNG clearly uses MT for its food and all that tech is expressly superscience.

Even after you make the food you still need to deliver it. The Tribbles got into the dumbwaiters.

High energy lasers are TL10 but with phasers and disrupters (both superscience) all over the place just who in the Federation uses them?

In the Menagerie, the beam weapons used by Pike and co and were called "lasers".

Artificial black holes are TL11 but they are "tiny and unstable" The ones created by the Romulans are neither and so are superscience.

The Romulan power source IS tiny and unstable.

Medical nanotechnology - uh where do we actually see this? Even in the TNG the Federation are using surgery to replace artificial organs. It this was around the doctor would simply whip out his Pneumohypo (hypospray) a TL9 device and inject people with nanites to fix whatever. Heck, Q even shows Picard his artificial heart and to my eyes it looks like an improved Jarvik heart which is TL7.

Actually nanotechnology that works as well as what you describe IS superscience.

Llfespan extension is related to TL but even at our TL8 you are talking at a good +5 to the aging roll (B444). Based on "The Deadly Years" Bio-tech Extended Lifespan (TL10) wasn't available during Kirk's five year mission. It is easy to say that the Tech that allowed Mccoy to live into the TNG era came from "For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky" ie from outside the Federation.

<shrug> Doesn't matter. The Federation has it now.

True. but as I pointed out before superscience royally hoses the TL. But there is enough non sueprscience tech to get a good ballpark idea

No, there isn't. Ignoring ubiquitous superscience that changes everything about how a society manufactures, communicates, travels, heals and kills by providing better alternatives to any mundane method doesn't tell you anything about how prosperous a society, how tough they'd be in a fight, or how easy it would be for a non-protagonist to make sense out of it and copy it.

Star Trek is a little inconsistent with regards to its Safe-Tech. In the Voyager era the Federation does one better then build superhuman androids that would replace humanity - they create superhuman holograms (based on Voyager's doctor) who can't replace humanity because they still need the holoemitters to function.

Yes. It is a little inconsistent with regards to its Safe-Tech. Which is to say they experiment with transhumanism for a little while or in isolated instances, and then abandon it.

In Kirk's era it was 'what Safe-Tech?' I can spot at least two instances where another civilization's tech was incorporated into Federation - the medical knowledge of Yonada ("For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched The Sky") and what would become Transwarp from the Kelvans ("By Any Other Name")

Um...so? Safe-tech isn't about not learning from other people. It's about not making humans obsolete.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by maximara

If the Federation has medical nanites this good why don't we see them used more?

You'd have to ask writers for the show. Maybe all the usual problems with easy solutions interfering with dramatic conflicts. Or maybe they're not the tech-excuse-for-magic nanotech often becomes, and instead have really specific uses. (Even if they can be programmed for such, as with the Voyager doctor, that doesn't mean there's a cloud of self-adapting ones floating around in every Starfleet member.) If they're prototype stuff or simply not terribly flexible, maybe Starfleet Medical doesn't deploy them regularly. Or any number of other reasons.

There are certainly few enough appearances that a game wouldn't go awry by simply declaring that the Federation doesn't have them. I'm sure even if you take his nanites away, Wesley can still manage to come up with another way to almost destroy the Enterprise.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

.

The Romulans don't have a higher technology. They have a divergent technology, at least at first but it's roughly equivalent.

Never said the Romulans had higher technology. I mearly pointed out the closest thing to their powersource in Ultra-Tech was TL11 and even that wasn't enough.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Even after you make the food you still need to deliver it. The Tribbles got into the dumbwaiters.

There are TL6-7 solutions to this - pneumatic tubes and conveyor belts.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

In the Menagerie, the beam weapons used by Pike and co and were called "lasers".

Ah the 'we made "The Cage" so let's make use of it' episode. Though odds are those lasers were one of those "dead end" technology I pointed out before.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The Romulan power source IS tiny and unstable.

No it isn't: "The Romulans use an artificial quantum singularity as their power source. Once it's activated, it can't be shut down" - Timescape
Quantum singularities are, right now, a superscience concept. Also you know what an unstable black hole does? It evaporates (ie blows up with a force akin to a supernova).

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No, there isn't. Ignoring ubiquitous superscience that changes everything about how a society manufactures, communicates, travels, heals and kills by providing better alternatives to any mundane method doesn't tell you anything about how prosperous a society, how tough they'd be in a fight, or how easy it would be for a non-protagonist to make sense out of it and copy it.

But remember TL^ is effectively its own tech level. To determine the number that goes with that TL^ you have to use what non superscience tech you have to get a good ballpark idea.

In fact, GURPS has Equivalent TL in addition to actual TL. Equivalent TL is what the setting appears to be while Divergent TL is what it "actually" is for the purposes of calculating TL penalties with the superscience ("^") mark to help denote this fact.

For example, Etheria has manned spaceflight which is "normally" TL9 but in every other aspect it is TL(5+1) and so it is roughly TL(5+1)^ across the board rather then TL(5+1) (spaceflight (5+4)^)

Similarly, the Britannica-5 setting has antimatter bombs which are normally TL10. But all the other technology is TL(5+1) and so it is more sensible to go with TL(5+1)^ rather then TL(5+1); antimatter bombs TL(5+5).

Star Trek is the same. It may have an Equivalent TL11 but its actual TL is much lower. GURPS Adaptations added a few more guidelines to finding out actual TL. In the step by step process adding superscience is step 3. "If the entire technology is impossible to define by analogies to Earth’s history, call it TL^ without assigning numbers." is step 4.

Never mind we are talking about Star Trek here where many times logical behavior is out to lunch. Case in point is Mudd's Woman where Mudd is right in his "My tiny ship in this immense galaxy a menace to navigation?" dismissal of the regulation Kirk cites. The remaining charges at least make perfect sense in terms of Mudd's safety (flight plan, navigation beacon, and answering hails)

An even more egregious example of in universe stupid is where it is stated "There is no record of any Federation vessel encountering anything remotely like this." when there should be the events of "The Immunity Syndrome". Ironically, Worf's Klingon legend of "a gigantic black space creature which was said to devour entire vessel" fits one of the events (the fate of the all Vulcan ship Intrepid) of that encounter like a glove - "Where Silence Has Lease"

And don't get me started on the illogical abomination that the Prime Directive became in Picard's time aka The Prime Directive: Star Trek's Doctrine of Moral Laziness and Examination of Star Trek's Prime Directive.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Ah the 'we made "The Cage" so let's make use of it' episode. ].

The laser pistols were also in the 1st season episodes "What Are Little Girls Made Of" and "The Conscience Of The King". It was clear to me that this was an older technology than phasers.

By default lasers are TL10 with no superscience. It would be quite normal for a new generation of tech that makes them obsolescent to be of a higher TL.

[Flyndaran]

Normal, but not necessary especially with superscience, or just a tech that has uses more in keeping with Federation's M.O.
Phasers allow stunning, for example.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Normal, but not necessary especially with superscience, or just a tech that has uses more in keeping with Federation's M.O.
Phasers allow stunning, for example.

It was established in TNG that lasers were not just a different technology but a far inferior one, so much so they were entirely negated by TNG-era shields.