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Old 02-08-2019, 12:23 PM   #1
TippetsTX
 
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Default 14-Hex Dragon

Have any here ran or played in a game where you had to fight one of these bad boys?

What were the circumstances and how did it turn out?
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

I have several in my longest-running TFT fantasy campaign, but the PC's avoid them. If the GM takes seriously his or her responsibility to play monsters as if they wanted to win fights, a 14 hex dragon is an awful lot to take on unless you have some sort of mega magical item or a very powerful spell caster in the party.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:06 PM   #3
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I have several in my longest-running TFT fantasy campaign, but the PC's avoid them. If the GM takes seriously his or her responsibility to play monsters as if they wanted to win fights, a 14 hex dragon is an awful lot to take on unless you have some sort of mega magical item or a very powerful spell caster in the party.
That is my assumption as well, which is why I'm curious to hear about some actual in-game experiences. Given the fragile nature of even 'high-level' characters in TFT, I wonder if most GMs will actively avoid using an opponent like this.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

As written the most effective way to use the 14-hexer is out in the open with fly-by claw swipes. The dragon's own DX, speed and armor favors forcing clumsy attacks on everybody.

If caught on the ground in its own lair it's doomed.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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If caught on the ground in its own lair it's doomed.
That depends on the size of the lair, though, doesn't it? Even a grounded 14-hex dragon should be able to outlast a party of experienced adventurers IMO, but that's why I want to hear about actual in-game encounters with the beastie.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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Have any here ran or played in a game where you had to fight one of these bad boys?

What were the circumstances and how did it turn out?
I put one in the very first adventure I GM'd, but the party didn't find it. Probably best they didn't.

I also have had such dragons as monsters in the background, doing things, which could have been gone after, and they were at the deep ends of some of my encounter tables, but usually my players never thought it was a good idea to go looking for them.

I did have one player whose PC's goal was to go hunting dragons, but he didn't make it that far.

And recently I've been GM'ing hcobb's Dragon Safari suggestion in play by post on the TFT Discord server, and some other in-person playtesting. But they haven't met a 14-hex dragon, and hopefully for them, they won't. One party got wiped out by wolves.

I have playtested many dragon combats, though usually not 14-hex dragons. In general I think a number of rule adjustments are needed for large monsters in general, and for dragons in particular, to not have them disappointingly weak for what they are supposed to be.

For example, a 7-hex hydra was encountered, which would be deadly, except the humanoids managed to do 25 points of damage before it got a chance to attack, and TFT has a generic max of 25 as the threshold before even the strongest monsters fall down - so it was one damage roll away from the difference between no casualties and lots of casualties or maybe TPK.

With dragons, what they do with themselves makes a massive difference. As a dragon, wade into humans on foot and die. Let yourself get shot many times and die. Overuse your breath attack and die. Make good use of flying, Push, Dodge, avoiding engagement, and be willing to fly away to heal, and you might do a lot better.

Dragons suffer from too-low ST (4-hex dragon has the ST of a 1-hex bear, its claws do about as much damage as a wolf or a deer or a ST 10 human with a sword), its breath hits a bit harder but even if it misses weakens itself, and problems turning around and keeping foes in their front hexes unless they stay flying and fly out of range whenever forced to move first.

But if you play a 14-hex (or even 7-hex) dragon intelligently and with self-preservation in mind, they can be formidable. Especially if you reason they may have managed to acquire one or more magic items, or other tweaks I've been developing.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

One aspect that I always found odd about TFT dragons (probably due to biases held over from how they were presented in D&D), was the the blanket statement that "they are never wizards". Why give them such a high IQ if they can't use spells?
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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That depends on the size of the lair, though, doesn't it? Even a grounded 14-hex dragon should be able to outlast a party of experienced adventurers IMO, but that's why I want to hear about actual in-game encounters with the beastie.
Kill it by jailing it with the Wall spell. Then use crossbows. Even under the best assumptions it still takes a 14 hex dragon a quarter of an hour to dig through one hex of stone.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:45 PM   #9
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Kill it by jailing it with the Wall spell. Then use crossbows. Even under the best assumptions it still takes a 14 hex dragon a quarter of an hour to dig through one hex of stone.
Why dig, though? A 14-hex dragon should have more than enough mass to simply knock the walls over.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:58 PM   #10
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Default Re: 14-Hex Dragon

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One aspect that I always found odd about TFT dragons (probably due to biases held over from how they were presented in D&D), was the the blanket statement that "they are never wizards". Why give them such a high IQ if they can't use spells?
Yes, although that would make them something very different. It's interesting to have them be powerful monsters that aren't wizards... (would be more interesting if they were a little more powerful). It would also be interesting to let them learn spells, and would make them a lot more formidable, but it would be a different kind of interesting.

I've been testing giving them talents, and am liking the results. It turns out I found quite a few talents that a dragon could use to good effect, even with such high IQ (assuming IQ is some sort of measure of the talent points available), and even without the likely assumption many dragons may have diverse rather than practical interests.

In particular for combat effectiveness, Tactics and Strategy, Toughness, Unarmed Combat, Alertness, and Dragon-Physicker (especially for GM's like me who allow physicking per wound).

Also languages and Literacy, Alertness, Detect Lies, Recognize Value, Assess Value, Diplomacy, others...

There might also be some dragon-specific talents, like their own versions of fighting talents.

However I would still think their stats are very mediocre for what they are supposed to be. I think though that the stats are good for magically summoned dragons and dragon illusions - you get a generic dragon who has no life experience. But a real large dragon who has survived to reach even 4 hexes (not to mention 7 or 14) will have developed itself from its experiences and so have somewhat better stats (mainly ST) and have learned talents.
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