Dungeon Fantasy Pantheons

[vitruvian]

Exactly. DF assumes the existence of four sets of gods:
Good Gods. These are the deities that clerics and holy warriors serve, and who bless holy water. They heal and protect. They're mostly interchangeable.
Evil Gods. These are the bosses of demons. They create cursed items and places. They might have a few evil clerics and unholy warriors. They're mostly interchangeable.
Nature Gods. These are the entities that druids serve. They rule plants and animals, and remain neutral in the Good-Evil dispute. They're mostly interchangeable.
Elder Gods. These are the gods of lost civilizations, served by insane NPC cultists. They're from Outside Time and Space, and transcend the Good-Evil dispute. They're mostly interchangeable.
Further details are strictly roleplaying. For game purposes, any altar of Good will serve any good cleric well, any altar of Evil will serve any evil cleric equally well, and so on.

In Powers terms, we're talking about two Moral powers, a single Nature power, and a Cosmic power, respectively. There are no truly Divine powers; the setup is more "Moral Forces" than "The Pantheon" (Powers, p. 30), but the Moral powers are identified as "divine" by those who wield them. (And there are also Chi and Magical powers, and maybe Psi powers, but none of those have to do with gods at all.)

I get the point of the simplification here, but I also recall some of the appeal of extremely classic DF being the calling out of the name of one's favored god, the (remote) chance of divine intervention, and eventually the opportunity to actually go out, kill some gods, and take their stuff. Also, and not so fondly, I remember even the Good Gods being differentiated a little according to a more complex (two-dimensional, really) structure of Moral Forces. Oh, let's be honest, I'm talking about Deities and Demigods and the D&D Alignment structure with the Lawful-Chaotic axis added to the Good-Evil one.

There's also the point that in my personal experience I pretty quickly moved on to 1st edition Runequest, which supported standard dungeon crawls just fine even though there was a rich world background that you could use or not as you saw fit. I mean, really, you could search through underground warrens for treasure just as in classic DF, only now with the option of playing a duck. I even seem to recall one of the earliest adventures released providing more detail on the local town than usual, but in typical DF fashion providing stats for the inhabitants and quantities of treasure in each house in case you wanted to just maraude through the place as though it were a dungeon.

Both the alignment variations in D&D and the religious differences built into RQ from the start provided opportunities for intraparty conflict and occasional back-stabbing, both of which I remember being quite frequent in even the most munchkiny of campaigns. Just the number of times that some Chaotic Evil nutter we for some reason allowed into the party got everybody killed at once... strange that we didn't notice at the time that it was frequently the same player that insisted on cheating at cards in Boot Hill or insulting the daimyo in Bushido, but let's leave that aside for now.

But enough reminiscing. I guess my original point was that so far in DF proper we only really have the two Power Investiture lists of spells to go by, one for the Good Gods served by Clerics and one for the Nature Gods served by Druids. One thing that struck me was that a few items in the Druid spell lists were things that the Good Gods would be able to or want to do for their worshipers, such as Bless Plants to provide great crop yields without miserable peasants all over the place (yeah, there I go worldbuilding again) or Lightning to punish the evil (actually, a Call Lightning spell where a bolt came down from the sky after some delay might be a nice addition). Likewise, there were some things in the Cleric spell lists that seemed like they might fit just as well with Nature Gods. So, in trying to add a little more detail in terms of the gods to fit my half-remembered paradigm of swearing oaths by strange gods while in the stone tunnels, I came across quite a few cases where it seemed a god might be served by both types of priests.

But yeah, I completely understand that this sort of thing can easily be left to the players to flesh out, if and when they care. The clerics can be assumed to be worshipping the entire Crystal Dragon Jesus pantheon of Good Gods, and the druids can be assumed to be worshipping all of Nature, and it won't matter as long as you know the location of the closest Temple of Healing and how much they charge for a Great Healing, etc., or where the local Grove of Druids is and whether they will even take gold pieces to serve as wilderness guides. The PCs probably neither know nor care whether the Grove is annually the site of ceremonial castings of Bless Plants with the attendance of the local farmers, and other details of that nature.

That said, I think it could be kind of fun to parse out the customization notes or the spell lists themselves, add in the concept of patron saints or deities for each of the templates or professions, and develop a more detailed pantheon on that basis.

[vitruvian]

That said, I think it could be kind of fun to parse out the customization notes or the spell lists themselves, add in the concept of patron saints or deities for each of the templates or professions, and develop a more detailed pantheon on that basis.

And to do just that... let's take the Clerical spell lists (and Holy Might power) first. Categories of spells (and some of these may overlap):

1) Healing. There are so many of these that we could easily divide them further into physical/mental healing, or healing of diseases/afflictions and of wounds. Note also that some of them (Lend Energy, for example) work as combat buffs as well, and that Resurrection might fit into its own special category. For the moment, just note that there'll be at least one major God of Healing, even if that god has other attributes.

2) Protections. We could lump warning spells like Watchdog in here with the physical protections, give them their own category, or lump them in with another category such as Wisdom. The physical protections could be one aspect of a God of War, or have their own deity that is purely passively protective.

3) Wisdom. There are quite a few informational spells normally part of the Knowledge college spread throughout the lists. It seems appropriate for the Good Gods to include a God or Goddess of Wisdom.

4) War. There are a fair number of combat buffs, leadership buffs, and even direct attacks in here, that seem appropriate for a God of War.

5) Spirits/Undead. There are quite a few spells concerned with dealing with spirits or physical undead, exclusive of sunlight spells mostly useful against vampires. This might point to a Good-aligned God of Death, or possibly Peaceful Rest as a polite euphemism. Resurrection might be in this god's portfolio in addition to or instead of that of the God of Healing.

6) Light. Clearly, there are quite a few light-oriented spells, including some effective attacks.

Now we start to get into finer gradations - any of the following could easily enough be folded into any of the above.

6) Purity. There are a few spells devoted specifically to cleansing or purifying things, as distinct from healing people of diseases. This could be an aspect of Healing, or the bailiwick of a distinct deity.

7) Truth and/or Justice/Law. There are a few spells that get at the truth which might be part of or independent of Wisdom. There's also Oath...

8) Food and/or Plenty. Actually, there are quite a few Food spells in here. They could be part and parcel of an Earth Goddess that also grants Healing, or they could have their own deity behind them.

9) Oddball spells. There are a few that almost seem more roguish (Silence, Silver Tongue), and then there are some really powerful spells that seem to point more at a Sky or Ruler God.

[vitruvian]

The Druid spells are a little easier to separate out. You would get:

1) A God of Beasts, or as many different deities as you want for as many types of animals as you want to differentiate - maybe you like totems. Responsible for all the Animal college spells.

2) A God of Paths that grants most of the informational spells. Seek spells could be separated out by element/type of terrain, or available from this god, or both. Would be very popular with Scouts, for obvious reasons.

3) The Gods of the Elements. There aren't a lot of Fire spells, so the God of Fire might not be much dealt with, but the Gods of Earth, Air/Storm/Wind, and Water would be very important to the druids, given how many of their powers derive from them. Of course, it's also possible that each individual mountain, river, etc. has its own deity/nymph that must be treated with for these kinds of effects.

4) The God of Forests. Plant spells, obviously. Might or might not be separate from a Grain God or Goddess of the Fields, if the druids would even deal with such. Again, there could be a separate dryad for every tree, leshy for every forest, and disir for every field, if so desired. Even if so, there might still be a central Green Man figure, or maybe Totoro.

[vitruvian]

Last, but not least, patron deities for the classes, excuse me, templates, other than the cleric, druid, and holy warrior themselves.

1) Barbarian - Wouldn't necessarily have only one god that they worship; druidic nature worship of many gods probably suits their backgrounds better. But only the strongest of their gods, the Ruler Warrior God (like Conan's Crom) is fit to be their patron or signature deity. Whether he fits in among the Good Gods or the Nature Gods doesn't really matter, unless you plan on an expedition to barbarian lands where you might encounter the occasional tribal shaman or priest with significant powers. Or, like in the background of Leiber's Fafhrd, perhaps all the women of the tribe are powerful witches with access to the druidic spell lists.

2) Bard - It would be a nice bit of background if there was a God of Music, or even just a legendary hero who was the first Bard ever. Which pantheon such a deity or demigod belongs to matters little, since he won't be granting any powers to the Bards except perhaps for their Bardic Talent itself. Unless you end up with multi-templated Bard/Clerics or Bard/Druids, of course. The former option meshes better with a founding figure who, like Orpheus, went into the Underworld; the latter with the concept of a singer whose song could command beasts and the elements. If you want both, it might be better to avoid the dichotomy there and simply take full Song-Based or Musical Magery. Otherwise, this deity fits fine in other slot; Gods of light are often also gods of music, but then too are the gods of sheperds. This area could also have multiple deities, like the Muses, whether based on instrument or mode of performance.

3) Knight - generally speaking, any God of War from the ranks of the Good Gods works fine for the Knight.

4) Martial Artist - Martial artists don't *need* to be worshipping any gods at all, but it wouldn't harm them to either have a patron saint of sorts that founded their disciplines and orders (and there could be many of each), or to pay homage to one of the Good Gods or War and/or Wisdom.

5) Scout - Scouts are likely to pay their respects to druidic gods of forests and/or pathfinding. On the other hand, if the Good Gods include deities of sun, moon, or war that emphasize archery, those could be favorites instead. Or there could just be a legendary heroic figure, the first Ranger or Huntsman, instead.

6) Swashbuckler - Swashbucklers are less likely to honor a God of War, and more likely to favor a patron saint of the sword, or perhaps a random God of Luck (or Panache or Style, if you want to get silly).

7) Thief - Why, of course there should be a God of Thieves! The only question is if he is just another face of one of the Good Gods, an Evil God that is also served by assassins or something, or a random element of some sort.

[vitruvian]

8) Wizard - There might be a separate God of Magic, or that office might be folded in with that of a God of Knowledge or Wisdom. Either works equally well.

Other professions: If you want some flavor when you visit the local town or village, let there be patron deities of other professions, even if they aren't adventuring templates - farmers, smiths, masons, merchants, sheperds, sailors. They don't necessarily need to have clerics of their own or provide anything but flavor, or if you end up building your world up past the simplest modes, you can have them be granted the ability to cast a few spells per Mysteries of the Trade in Fantasy. Perhaps most of the weapons and armor enchantments currently being done (as opposed to recovered from underground dungeons) aren't done by wizard enchanters, but rather by Master Smiths who basically only know how to do those enchantments, and maybe a cantrip or to dealing with heating up metal and such.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

4) Martial Artist - Martial artists don't *need* to be worshipping any gods at all, but it wouldn't harm them to either have a patron saint of sorts that founded their disciplines and orders (and there could be many of each), or to pay homage to one of the Good Gods or War and/or Wisdom.

That is the point.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

7) Thief - Why, of course there should be a God of Thieves! The only question is if he is just another face of one of the Good Gods, an Evil God that is also served by assassins or something, or a random element of some sort.

Well, the Fantasy Thief has a numinous side, and it is related with invisibility, darkness, betrayal (unreliable and chaotic trait), danger and mistery. All that relates him -again- with one of the universal principles, pertaining themselves to the order of the non-manifestation: uncreated, invisible, misterious and morally unreliable.

The Fantasy Thief is specially drawn to the dark potentia, yin or the "Grandmother Chaos" (or "Night"). So my opinion is if you seek a god/dess for thieves, work out a divine personification of it/Her.

[vitruvian]

The Fantasy Thief is specially drawn to the dark potentia, yin or the "Grandmother Chaos" (or "Night"). So my opinion is if you seek a god/dess for thieves, work out a divine personification of it/Her.

Well, in my pseudo-Greek pantheon that I started this thread with, I did have a deity called Nyx (couldn't find a good alternate epithet) or 'Mother Night'. Like the Nyx in Greek mythology, she had lots of children that aren't really formally worshipped by the clerical establishment, but would fit in these odd roles. So, besides Death, Sleep, Dreams, Fear, etc., she could easily have twins who are the God of Music and the God of Silence respectively, patrons respectively of Bards and Thieves (although the latter might frequently invoke Mother Night directly as well).

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

8) Wizard - There might be a separate God of Magic, or that office might be folded in with that of a God of Knowledge or Wisdom. Either works equally well.

Intelligibility (supernatural knowledge and wisdom) is an aspect of the essential pole (Yang, Celestial, light, order, consciousness, etc) of existence, opposed to the unintelligible and insane chaos own of the substantial pole (yin, darkness, chaos, unconsciousness, ignorance).

So knowledgeable and learned Wizards may praise the intelligible nature of the essential Being (again, one of the two universal principles), even giving it/Him the name of a mysteric teacher god or guru of knowledge.

For more about the ancient and mysteric difference between "rational understanding" and "intellectual knowledge":

Originally Posted by demonsbane

(...) universal principles, being beyond all measure and rational knowledge, very well makes the human (or elven, whatever, except maybe those with Power Investiture or Blessed http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...25&postcount=8) perception of their mutual interactions indeed incomplete

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

Intelligibility (supernatural knowledge and wisdom) is an aspect of the essential pole (Yang, Celestial, light, order, consciousness, etc) of existence, opposed to the unintelligible and insane chaos own of the substantial pole (yin, darkness, chaos, unconsciousness, ignorance).

More fluff roleplaying & worldbuilding stuff:

I forgot to add regarding the wizards and their arcane wisdom viewpoint: the degree of mysteric intellectual knowledge would determine the identification and proximity with the essential-celestial pole (in other words, Holiness...), while the lack of this knowledge would determine the ontological proximity (downwards) to the substantial-chthonic pole.

The seeming problem here would be all wizards worshipping this aspect of the essential principle, would be almost in the path of the Buddha in its pursuing the knowledge of the source of all magical wisdom (again, the essential principle)... (1)

Perhaps evil gods of arcane arts or dark supernatural patrons of magic (personifications of aspects of the pure potentiallity) offer to some wizards a sort of pseudo-knowledge, not for advancing ontologically "upwards" but for achieving more raw magical power and control of the phenomenologic order at exchange of the possibility of achieving truer knowledge making them paying the price of taking some steps downwards (2)... The Black Robes or the Dark Side theme...

In a Fantasy cosmos (even if it is Dungeon Fantasy), Above and Below (4e Fantasy, p.40) are meaningful notions because each one aims at one of the two universal principles, or at their respective realms.

BTW, a cosmos with the dark, substantial pole as the only universal principle (if such thing can be said), lacking its essential counterpart, would be very close to the maltheistic Dark Fantasy & Horror wordlview: that very unopposed primal darkness fits very well as Elder God (or Goddess), in the most negative and horrific sense: "Only Hell is real. What you regard as Evil is indeed the only principle."

Beware, then, with the Grandmother Chaos!

(1) The generic and default indistinction of GURPS Magic between wizardly magic and clerical or divine magic would match with this. But DF assumptions aren't neccessarily the same.

(2) Perhaps these dark patrons of magic offers their patronage in an deceptive way, portraying the unknowable "unintelligible and insane chaos own of the [mysterious and non-manifested] substantial pole " as the Mysterium Tremendum itself, as the very goal of intellectual and mysteric knowledge, turning these black wizards in powerful madmen step after step closer to the Abyss.
In other words, the unknowable and by definition unintelligible nature of the substantial dark pole lends itself to be mistaken with a possitive trascendental cosmic mystery, and some entities could try to take advantage of that for advancing their goals.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I don't have that book, yet. Do they not allow clerics to get plant spells?

I'm too lazy to go check, but my general impression of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy was that there was an attempt to make Arcane magic different from Divine magic, and making Druidic magic different from both.

Hence my guess would be a "no".