Examples of "surprise" from B393?

[Gnome]

Ok, the last few responses seem to imply that the type of situation I have in mind (where no one is surprised, but not everyone is sure whether combat is about to start or not), is best represented by characters of higher Speed taking Wait, Ready, etc to prepare for combat.

What concerns me is that those can all be signals to initiate combat, and my whole point is sometimes there's a tense situation where no one knows for sure whether or not there will be a fight. Performing a combat maneuver in such a situation is definitely an instigation, so it's weird to retroactively apply such a maneuver to any character (PC or NPC). In other words, if we're having a loud argument that could lead to violence, and then I draw a knife, that definitely increases our chances of having a fight. But if I don't draw a knife and you attack me, then you got to go first regardless of Speed. I guess that's ok--the "reward" for initiating the fight is going first--but it does weird things to the order if there are multiple combatants involved. In other words, if a slower character initiates the fight, all the characters that are slower than him go before the faster characters.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Gnome

Ok, the last few responses seem to imply that the type of situation I have in mind (where no one is surprised, but not everyone is sure whether combat is about to start or not), is best represented by characters of higher Speed taking Wait, Ready, etc to prepare for combat.

What concerns me is that those can all be signals to initiate combat, and my whole point is sometimes there's a tense situation where no one knows for sure whether or not there will be a fight. Performing a combat maneuver in such a situation is definitely an instigation, so it's weird to retroactively apply such a maneuver to any character (PC or NPC). In other words, if we're having a loud argument that could lead to violence, and then I draw a knife, that definitely increases our chances of having a fight. But if I don't draw a knife and you attack me, then you got to go first regardless of Speed. I guess that's ok--the "reward" for initiating the fight is going first--but it does weird things to the order if there are multiple combatants involved. In other words, if a slower character initiates the fight, all the characters that are slower than him go before the faster characters.

Nothing retroactive about it. If some faster character thinks violence is about to start and chooses to draw a weapon, they drew a weapon first - whether or not somebody else would have drawn a weapon a little later regardless becomes a counterfactual.

If they choose to Wait, I don't think treating that as a 'signal to initiate combat' makes sense - unless the opposition is trying to ambush you and sees it as indicating that the ambush is about to be blown.

[David Johnston2]

[QUOTE=Gnome;2269847]Ok, the last few responses seem to imply that the type of situation I have in mind (where no one is surprised, but not everyone is sure whether combat is about to start or not), is best represented by characters of higher Speed taking Wait, Ready, etc to prepare for combat.

What concerns me is that those can all be signals to initiate combat, and my whole point is sometimes there's a tense situation where no one knows for sure whether or not there will be a fight. Performing a combat maneuver in such a situation is definitely an instigation, /QUOTE]

While "wait" is technically a combat manuever, it doesn't start combat.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

While "wait" is technically a combat manuever, it doesn't start combat.

Combat starts when the GM says it starts. If the GM says it starts with a Wait maneuver, then that's what it does.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Combat starts when the GM says it starts. If the GM says it starts with a Wait maneuver, then that's what it does.

The combat turn sequence starts when the GM says it does. But combat itself happens when someone makes an attack.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The combat turn sequence starts when the GM says it does. But combat itself happens when someone makes an attack.

I don't think you'll find any such statement in the rules. "In combat" is a term used in the rules that applies to whenever the turn sequence is in use, not just after an attack is made. You could have a bunch of Wait, Ready, Aim, Do Nothing, Concentrate, Wait, Wait, Move, Evaluate, Evaluate and everything that applies to "in combat" applies already.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I don't think you'll find any such statement in the rules.

Which in no way means that a Wait instigates the killings.

[Boge]

Action is faster than reaction. If a slower combatant acts before a faster one...unless he's REALLY fast (see who draws first MA103), the first action SHOULD happen before a reaction.

I'll often times tell our GM "I'm going to be ready and take a Wait maneuver in case he tries to run" or something like that before combat even starts just to ensure that I am on the ready for combat should anything happen, I should get to act first. I'm usually the higher speed character anyway. I think it just helps back you up if they get the first action, you have something to argue,"Hey, I said I was going to be ready, taking a wait maneuver."

If it looks like it could be a standoff draw, I'll specify to the GM again that I'll be ready.

But if I don't say anything and the GM says,"He fast draws his sword and attacks you" I don't feel it's fair to say, "I'm faster, so I'll draw my sword and attack him first." I didn't even know combat was going to happen until he said I was being attacked. So my only option should be a defense assuming I was somewhat ready for combat. Otherwise, it goes back to my first question if it should be considered "surprise" or not.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Which in no way means that a Wait instigates the killings.

You didn't say "killings" before, you said "combat." This is important, because GURPS often talks about being in a state of combat, and specifically declares that the GM decides when this starts. In this topic about surprise and ambush, it becomes necessary to know when the rules for combat kick in. When an actual attack occurs is of lesser interest here.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

You didn't say "killings" before, you said "combat."

Context matters. In this case the response I was responding to was conflating "combat" with "violence".