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Old 01-21-2019, 11:25 AM   #81
Alonsua
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
That's not actually what Alonsua seems to be talking about. It appears that he's referencing the use of Contact in GURPS Boardroom and Curia to represent the personnel of an organization and the skills they can provide.
You are completely right.
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Old 01-21-2019, 12:03 PM   #82
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
You are completely right.
Why are you talking about character sheet entries then?
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Old 01-21-2019, 12:29 PM   #83
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
I totally agree with you, what I was referring to with "special snowflakes" is that the same rules that control the NPCs control the PCs, so if the peak of the skill score is 21 for the PCs, it is similar for NPCs. In fact, I think that the imaginative and narrative aspects are enhanced much more with mediocre characters than with "superstars". I guess that it is easier for most of us to feel identified with the problems of a professional who has to work to support her family and suddenly finds herself involved in a much bigger plot than she could ever have imagined, than with a playboy millionaire like Tony Stark.

In fact and right now, among all my players, there is only one that could be said to "stand out" for the skill of his character, and it is not that it is a brutal thing, the character simply has a few combat skills with a score of 15, since he is a member of a Japanese mafia clan that deals with advanced technology. The other characters are really regular people, such as a renewable energy sales rep, a psychologist, a computer technician, an administrative-accountant, a promoter, a biologist, a geologist, a lawyer, etc.
If those are your PCs, I don't see why you need to have NPCs with effective skill 24 or higher, or an organization with such NPCs as Contacts. What kind of interesting narrative are they enabling?

I don't think that the difference between ordinary people and Tony Stark is what I'm talking about. I've run a GURPS campaign with characters based on 50 points; I've run one with characters based on 1500 points. The high-powered characters got sent out on missions to restrain even more powerful superbeings who might threaten entire nations if not kept in line. That is, it's perfectly okay and interesting to tell stories about incredibly powerful beings (the mythological Thor, Kimball Kinnison, Wonder Woman, Tony Stark) if you confront them with commensurate challenges.

I'm disappointed that you responded to my opening throwaway line, but seemingly have nothing to say about my longer paragraphs about the literary theory of RPGs.

Addendum: It looks to me as if you might be falling into what is sometimes called a "motte and bailey" argument, or "moving the goalposts."

I originally objected to having Contacts with effective skill higher than 21, on the ground that they would be too likely to overshadow the PCs who are the proper focus of the narrative. You asked why you should run campaigns for "special snowflakes." I offered an argument critical of your sentiment, making a case that being the focus of the narrative was essential for PCs, and that not treating them as such as poor GMing. Your reply said that you were talking about incredibly powerful PCs, at the level of Tony Stark, as "special snowflakes."

My original point was not particularly about Tony Stark-level PCs; it was about PCs at any power level, and in fact it would apply far more strongly to a low-powered PC than to a superhero (Tony Stark probably wouldn't be overwhelmed by a Contact with skill-24!). In that context, the natural interpretation of your comment is that you were objecting to preserving the agency of PCs at any power level. Now you say you are objecting only to PCs at high power levels. That isn't what I was talking about; you have changed the focus of the discussion.

I'd also note that I don't think there is anything objectionable about PCs with incredible power, so long as their challenges are commensurate. Thor battles frost giants and the Midgard serpent; Kimball Kinnison faces Black Lensmen and Gharlane of Eddore; Tony Stark goes up against Ultron. So I don't think the change of focus makes your view more plausible.
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Last edited by whswhs; 01-21-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 01-21-2019, 01:23 PM   #84
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
Where does it say so and how is effective skill 21 "minor"?
If they were not minor players they would be represented with more than one skill.
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Old 01-21-2019, 01:50 PM   #85
Alonsua
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
So I don't think the change of focus makes your view more plausible.
Maybe I have not made it completely clear, a player character can have a skill score of up to 21, and add TL / 2 and up to +6 if he has enough subordinates. That, in TL8, adds up to a total of 31. If we presume that in the "contact" advantage all the modifiers have already been taken into account, that is the peak level that I want to be possibly acquired.

The fact that those of the PCs are relatively mediocre characters is actually irrelevant, it was simply my response to the argument that those characters should be more powerful than the NPCs so the players could stand out.
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:23 PM   #86
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
Maybe I have not made it completely clear, a player character can have a skill score of up to 21, and add TL / 2 and up to +6 if he has enough subordinates. That, in TL8, adds up to a total of 31. If we presume that in the "contact" advantage all the modifiers have already been taken into account, that is the peak level that I want to be possibly acquired.

The fact that those of the PCs are relatively mediocre characters is actually irrelevant, it was simply my response to the argument that those characters should be more powerful than the NPCs so the players could stand out.
You are imho comparing apple and orange.

One is the PC effective level, which you choose to limit to 31.
One is the contact effective skill level, which Boardroom and Curia cap at 21 (-3 for effective skills rolls).

The first is a individual Gurps skill
The second represent an organisation global capabilities in an area.

Modifers and caps valid for one are not necessarily valid for the other.

Case A : the organisation have Contacts: Criminal skills-18 [15].
You call the organisation to clean up after an op, you roll housekeeping against 18-3 : 15.

Case 2 : Victor (PC or NPC), a member of the organisation, go clean up after an op : You roll against Victor housekeeping skill 21, +equipment, tdm, and any other applicable modifier.

You use case A when the players make a generic request upon an organisation they have ties to.
You use case B when the players can call upon Victor specifically.

It may well be that in case A, it will be Victor that will do the job. Or not. You don't know. But on average, the organisation will act with (in this case) skill 15.

Last edited by Celjabba; 01-21-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:28 PM   #87
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
Maybe I have not made it completely clear, a player character can have a skill score of up to 21, and add TL / 2 and up to +6 if he has enough subordinates. That, in TL8, adds up to a total of 31. If we presume that in the "contact" advantage all the modifiers have already been taken into account, that is the peak level that I want to be possibly acquired.

The fact that those of the PCs are relatively mediocre characters is actually irrelevant, it was simply my response to the argument that those characters should be more powerful than the NPCs so the players could stand out.
Well, in the first place, that's an exaggeration. What I actually said was that it made for a bad campaign when the NPCs were seriously more capable than the PCs, because it tended to deprive the PCs of agency. I think that effective skill higher than 21 is likely to have that effect in most campaigns.

I'd also say that in most campaigns, whatever is officially allowed, no PC will have base skill 21. In my current campaign, which started out with PCs built on 200 points, and now has them approaching 300, one PC has several skills of around 17, and the player is a little cautious about overpowering the other characters.

But, also, Contacts are not competing with PCs in "adventurer" skills. By definition, a Contact doesn't go on adventures with you. You come to them for information, for medical treatment, for help in negotiations and finding people to deal with, for getting your super suit patched up, for selling your loot, and that sort of thing. PCs normally are not going to have skill-21, or even skill-18, in most of those tasks.
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:30 PM   #88
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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PCs normally are not going to have skill-21, or even skill-18, in most of those tasks.
Sure, as I said in the scene I am currently running the highest skill is 15, but the player can claim up to +10 in bonuses for an effective skill of 25 before penalties.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:27 PM   #89
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

I tend to assume that the skill of the Contact involved includes any modifiers already applied, making it "effective skill 21", not "base skill 21, add modifiers as necessary".

Remember that a Contact is an NPC who provides a short non-combat service during an adventure. It is this kind of scope that makes us say "a Contact is a minor player", since they're minor players yet possibly important players in the overall narrative.

For example, a vigilante could have three Contacts: a person in the CSI division of the police force providing Forensics, an informant inside the local organized crime syndicate providing Streetwise, and an arms dealer using Merchant to get special ordnance.

A Contact Group representing a bunch of related skills - in this case, a corporation providing Business Skills (which I take to be Accounting, Finance, Merchant, Administration, Market Analysis, Economics, and Propaganda) - is still factoring in modifiers to grant the effective skill listed in the advantage level. The PC is going to the corporation and talking to the branch manager or one of the division heads and asking for goods or information which draws on the corp's resources. The exact skill used could vary from use to use, as could the person in the corp talked with, but each one will be at the effective skill you bought the Contact at.

If the PC has a ranking position in the corporation (head of accounting, shift manager, branch manager, etc.), that in my experience would best be handled by giving the PC a few levels of Merchant Rank and using the Assistance Roll mechanic from Social Engineering: Pulling Rank, not giving them a Contact Group. The Assistance Roll mechanic would indicate how often the PC could use company resources in the adventure and how much assistance the company could give.


Clear as mud?
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Last edited by Phantasm; 01-21-2019 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:08 PM   #90
mr beer
 
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Default Re: Make contact skill great again.

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I tend to assume that the skill of the Contact involved includes any modifiers already applied, making it "effective skill 21", not "base skill 21, add modifiers as necessary".
Yeah this. That's why the Contact isn't an Ally or a Patron with a list of specific skills. The Contact has an effective skill at something, which might even be a skill that they don't possess (IMO).

"After that, select an effective skill
level. This reflects the Contact’s connections,
other skills, Status, etc. It
need not be his actual skill level."


Emphasis mine.

So say the PC has the US President as a Contact for Strategy. Many POTUS might not even have this skill, but if they hand a job to a Pentagon subordinate, they might reasonably be able to provide an effective Strategy-21. Or a CEO of a large corporation might be a Contact for Engineering, Chemistry, Cryptography etc. etc. without personally having those skills.

Last edited by mr beer; 01-21-2019 at 08:18 PM.
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