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Old 04-23-2008, 11:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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Originally Posted by griffin
I think Banestorm treats Herb Lore as just the same as Alchemist, but with nature based material. I still haven't bought any of the DF PDFs yet. Which one deals with non-mana based healing powers?
I don't recall Banestorm covering Herb Lore in any detail. It's probably safe to assume that it works as noted in Magic, like a less sophisticated version of Alchemy. DF1 has the particulars on the templates and powers.

It's worth noting that magic is not the source for all supernatural abilities in Banestorm; the presence of Mystics (with Pact-based abilities) is canonical. That allows for the possibility of other power sources too, I suppose, though such should be decidedly rare.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:59 AM   #12
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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Originally Posted by Kromm
However, there are catches. Wizards always need that minimum 1 second to cast (4e got rid of instant spells), generally pay FP, and are ineffective when there's no mana. A cinematic martial artist can do most of what he does in 0 time and for 0 FP, unless he insists on every blow being a Power Blow, and he can do so anywhere.
Uh, I'm sorry to countradict you, but that's simply not true. Most chi skills, including all those with combat utility, get obscene penalties for istant use and cost FP, and are generally weaker than their advantage counterparts (in fact, they are the opposite of spells in that way). Therefore, mages take less time to use their abilities.
Mages also have a lot of ways to immobilize a martial artist or otherwise make him unable to get into close combat.
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads
Uh, I'm sorry to countradict you, but that's simply not true. Most chi skills, including all those with combat utility, get obscene penalties for istant use and cost FP, and are generally weaker than their advantage counterparts (in fact, they are the opposite of spells in that way). Therefore, mages take less time to use their abilities.
I'm going to have to contradict you my friend, because a cinematic martial artist is not defined by his chi skills.

Even if he was, both Pressure Points and Pressure Secrets have no time to use and no FP cost, but both are cinematic chi skills restricted to TBAM that are directly related to combat, and kick ass I might add.

Chi skills aside, Being able to Rapid Strike three or four times in a turn with the kinds of penalties normal characters normally face on two Rapid Strikes is just a basic, but extremely powerful, example. Martial Arts opened up a LOT of options for cinematic martial artists to kick ass.

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Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads
Mages also have a lot of ways to immobilize a martial artist or otherwise make him unable to get into close combat.
And martial artists have way to imobilize, paralyze, or tear the heart out of mages, and have chi skills that let him get close to the mage without the mage even knowing he was there.
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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Originally Posted by griffin
That doesn't work unless you go with Switchable on Mana Damper and add similar enhancements on Magic Resistance. Loss of using healing potions and the ability to receive healing via spells is too great a disadvantage. Of course, if there is non-mana based Healing, then you may be able to do this. However, even Herb Lore is based on mana so that won't get you around the issue when using Mana Damper and MR.

Personally, I think they should not have made the resistance roll on spells that aren't normally resisted based on MR+HT. I think just having them based on MR (as someone pointed out on another thread) would have been reasonable.
You're right. I meant competitive in a confrontation, not in the broader sense.
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Aportation, anybody?
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:27 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Kromm
I think that a cinematic martial artist is priced just about right. The trouble is that wizards are rather cheap for what they can do.
Well before GURPS 4e your stance was that Magery was priced just right and magic costs were pretty much on target. You did have the option of changing the price, but that's no longer an option (at least not until GURPS 5e, by which time I doubt anyone will be doing pen & paper RPGs anyway). I've always felt Magery was priced a bit to cheap and that at 15 points/level it would balance against other 15 point capabilities.

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However, there are catches. Wizards always need that minimum 1 second to cast (4e got rid of instant spells), generally pay FP, and are ineffective when there's no mana. A cinematic martial artist can do most of what he does in 0 time and for 0 FP, unless he insists on every blow being a Power Blow, and he can do so anywhere. In head-to-head combat, it's possible that a wizard with the advantage of distance could prevail, but if he's within grappling range . . . not so much. After then 11th fight of the day without much of a rest, the martial artist is still fighting, while the wizard is down to his last FP and reduced to casting Itch spells or something. And in no mana, the wizard is about as useful in a fight as a college professor shouting mathematical theorems at the enemy.
There are still blocking spells which wizards cast instantly, but they are on your opponents turn and it's not quite the same thing as the abusable time to cast reduced to zero on other types of spells. At the 250 point level mages can typically decrease FP costs on some of their spells. I've rarely had cases where there are more than a few fights in a day. If nothing else, the amount of time it takes to actually run GURPS combats limits this even if in gametime lots of fights are possible.

I can't see the no mana holding much sway either. If there are mages, they aren't going to face too many areas with no mana. Sending a party with mages into a territory with no mana would pretty much be a campaign killer. I can see being in a room or corridor with no mana (or more frequently low mana). I've done Aspected Mana a bit also (helps deal with One College mages, mages who concentrate on fire spells, earth magic, etc.).
What it amounts to is "What do you want to be good at?" Fighting? Endurance? Flashy, save-the-day moments? Functioning anywhere?

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And it's also important to question the entire concept of going head to head. A martial artist with good levels of Body Control and Mental Strength can resist just about anything. If he has Enhanced Dodge or Parry Missile Weapons, he can also avoid unresisted Missile spells. And if he uses Invisibility Art, he might not even be a target.
They're going to have problems dealing with mages armed with Invisibility, Reverse Missiles, Blur, etc.

Invisibility Art (IA) isn't at all impressive (especially when compared to wizards use of Invisible spell). Invisibility Art will only be useful for that first second, than you'd better get out of site. This is the problem I have with many of the martial arts capabilities. They are so limited and require checks every second. Lizard Climb for instance is DX/Hard and has pre-requisites TBaM and Acrobatics and Climbing at 14+. Then you still have to make a roll once per second of climbing. Insult is added to injury because if you fall, you only get one chance to stop your fall. Scaling a sheer 100 foot wall without equipment really isn't likely to happen, even for an cinematic ninja. Adding neko-de makes it far more likely, but then it's a bit less cinematic.

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Finally, don't overlook all the special rules in Martial Arts that only apply to those with TbaM or WM. If the GM is concerned about martial artist vs. wizard balance, he can just let those with TbaM or WM make 3+ Rapid Strikes, use chambara defenses, and be the only ones allowed to use extra effort in combat. Believe me when I say that those things right there will make TbaM worth the points.
Rapid Strikes aren't bad but the penalty on them is limiting. TBaM halves the penalty, so a Martial Artist (MA) with high skill could conceivably make 3 Rapid Stirkes at -6. Still a MA with skill 17 is attacking at 11 on each attack and if they want to aim at a particular target things get worse. A mage can use Blur or turn Invisible and then strike. Of course, the MA can still fight the mage provided he/she has taken Blind Fighting.
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I'm going to have to contradict you my friend, because a cinematic martial artist is not defined by his chi skills.
Yep. I didn't say "most of his skills" but "most of what he does." Most of what he does is piles of attacks and defenses in rapid succession, making rolls against techniques that most people can't learn. Some of what he does is chi skills that require little or no extra preparation, and no FP, being either passive or ongoing: Blind Fighting vs. invisible targets (like wizards); Body Control and Mental Strength to replace HT and Will to resist spells; Immovable Stance to avoid being shoved around (say, by Movement spells); Invisibility Art, Light Walk, and Lizard Climb for sneaking up and ending the fight before it starts; and Pressure Points and Pressure Secrets to make blows hurt more (up to and including inflicting Mute on a wizard . . .). Really, it's only Breaking Blow, Flying Leap, and Power Blow that require great mounds of FP and preparation, and I explicitly qualified my remark: ". . . unless he insists on every blow being a Power Blow."
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:49 PM   #18
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@griffin: If you're going to cock your campaign so that a wizard can always do his stuff and a martial artist can rarely do his, then of course the wizard will seem unduly powerful. Frankly, making calls like "few fights in a day" (which downplays the abilities of martial artists) alongside ones like "not many areas with no mana" (which downplays the limitations on wizards) is constructing a situation that inherently favors wizards. Letting wizards prepare their most potent defensive spells (Invisibility, Reverse Missiles, etc.) ahead of time but not letting martial artists use their preemptive-strike abilities to kill wizards before this happens (Invisibility Art and Lizard Walk only need a few seconds to get a ninja behind a wizard for a fatal backstab to the brain) is similarly lopsided.

The problem here is identical to that in the "wizards vs. ultra-tech" thread we had recently: you're just chucking everyone into a crucible and using frontal give-and-take-damage potential as the sole yardstick of effectiveness. You're not looking at subtlety, situational factors, or intelligent applications of abilities by the player.

As for the price of mages . . . let me clarify that I don't think it's Magery and spells that are cheap. In point of fact, since it takes five levels in a spell to see a cost or time reduction, magical power effectively comes in 50-point chunks (+5 to Magery), which appears fair given that spells have time and energy requirements, and rely on an energy field to work. What I think is cheap is the bottomless pool of FP that many GMs allow in the form of Powerstones. You'll note that (1) there's no Powerstone spell in the Basic Set, and (2) DF limits wizards to one power item that can't recharge on an adventure. That's my way of balancing wizards.

In my current game -- which has lots of powers -- there have been many situations where PC wizards have had to fight 8-10 battles in a few hours (in enemy strongholds, on raids, etc.) with no rests in between. There are no Powerstones in my campaign. The upshot is that wizards can make themselves very, very handy once or twice, or kinda-sorta useful lots of times, but not dominant all the time. Whereas the guys with Weapon Master and Extra Attack, and things like Heroic Archer, can just keep cranking it out. And yes, I do hit the party with no-mana areas, cosmic Neutralize effects that instantly take down spells, and the like; those who march into enemy territory, as PCs do, have to face the land mines and enemies with the home-field advantage.
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

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@griffin: If you're going to cock your campaign so that a wizard can always do his stuff and a martial artist can rarely do his, then of course the wizard will seem unduly powerful. Frankly, making calls like "few fights in a day" (which downplays the abilities of martial artists) alongside ones like "not many areas with no mana" (which downplays the limitations on wizards) is constructing a situation that inherently favors wizards. Letting wizards prepare their most potent defensive spells (Invisibility, Reverse Missiles, etc.) ahead of time but not letting martial artists use their preemptive-strike abilities to kill wizards before this happens (Invisibility Art and Lizard Walk only need a few seconds to get a ninja behind a wizard for a fatal backstab to the brain) is similarly lopsided.
Wizards don't tend to be the forward guards so I don't buy this. Invisibility can be prepared ahead of time and stays on for a while, then you can slip past. Invisibilty Arts requires a check every second. Getting down a corridor is a major challenge for the ninja, but not much at all for the mage if the mage has a decent mana level. A ninja with adequate cover could use Invisibility Art in conjunction with Stealth to move from cover to cover, but alone it's just of really limited use. In addition mages can do stuff like Levitation and drop in from above.

I once had an adventure where it was mostly a low mana zone along with an no mana area. My players were not happy, and that included the ones with non-mages (who were used to magic healing be available). It cut almost half the party (mages) to having very little utility. It wasn't fun for the players and I don't find that acceptable.

As for having few fights in a day, that has more to do with mechanically running combat under GURPS and the time it takes to play them out more than any structure I give to a campaign. It's the reason GURPS Action! is at the top of my wish list.

I'm currently working on an demo game Assault on the Lair of the Red Dragon that will be mainly a hack and slash event dungeon crawl event. The PCs will out class many of the enemies encountered and I plan on using options which will drop the NPC enemies when they hit HP 0. I'm designing pre-gen characters. While I have no problem generating any number of other character types - mages, swordsman, thieves, archers, etc. - the cinematic martial artists are coming up well above the point budget of 250 points. It's pretty trivial building a killer mage with those points and they have quite a few options. Building an effective ninja is proving much more difficult. Fitting such a character among the others in this fantasy special ops team is especially difficult. They have less options than other characters. In order to be effective the ninja really needs very high scores on a few skills.

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The problem here is identical to that in the "wizards vs. ultra-tech" thread we had recently: you're just chucking everyone into a crucible and using frontal give-and-take-damage potential as the sole yardstick of effectiveness. You're not looking at subtlety, situational factors, or intelligent applications of abilities by the player.
Looking at the scenario I have in mind, each of the mages will have difficulty due to Aspected Mana areas - Dark aspected, Death Aspected, Water Aspected, etc. as well as one low-mana area and a conditional no mana corridor. The keep they will be raiding has too many magic dependent creatures for large no mana areas to make sense - zombies, vampires, and the lord of the domain, a huge red dragon.

The aspected areas will greatly limit certain mages as will the low-mana area. The conditional no mana area is a corridor which can have the mana turned off or on via a pair of linked toggle switches. They'll need to fight their way through orcs and reptilemen (I'm assuming there's nothing inherently mana dependent for either of these species).

There will be traps to spring, locks to pick, and NPCs to kill off silently. There will be vampires that need to be taken out by stakes to the heart, fire, or decapitation. Weres which need to be killed with silver weapons. The ninja character in order needs to sink lots of points in a few areas. I'd like balance so he has Karate and Judo. Trained by a Master is needed. Weapon Master might be useful, but the points start to add up. Using the templates for a Martial Artist, I get a rather unimpressive ninja at 250 points when compared to the other characters, especially the mages.

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As for the price of mages . . . let me clarify that I don't think it's Magery and spells that are cheap. In point of fact, since it takes five levels in a spell to see a cost or time reduction, magical power effectively comes in 50-point chunks (+5 to Magery), which appears fair given that spells have time and energy requirements, and rely on an energy field to work. What I think is cheap is the bottomless pool of FP that many GMs allow in the form of Powerstones. You'll note that (1) there's no Powerstone spell in the Basic Set, and (2) DF limits wizards to one power item that can't recharge on an adventure. That's my way of balancing wizards.
For this adventure the wizards will have access to powerstones, but pretty small ones, mainly 3-5 points. Still in general, mages have access to some pretty incredibly powerful spells and they typically can overshadow mundanes.

The demo will be using Banestorm as the setting (although this isn't entirely necessary, but it made choices for languages and such easier).

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In my current game -- which has lots of powers -- there have been many situations where PC wizards have had to fight 8-10 battles in a few hours (in enemy strongholds, on raids, etc.) with no rests in between. There are no Powerstones in my campaign. The upshot is that wizards can make themselves very, very handy once or twice, or kinda-sorta useful lots of times, but not dominant all the time. Whereas the guys with Weapon Master and Extra Attack, and things like Heroic Archer, can just keep cranking it out. And yes, I do hit the party with no-mana areas, cosmic Neutralize effects that instantly take down spells, and the like; those who march into enemy territory, as PCs do, have to face the land mines and enemies with the home-field advantage.
So how do you deal with healing? No stops for potions, healing spells and the like? No using first-aid and binding wounds?

Last edited by griffin; 04-23-2008 at 04:26 PM. Reason: add link to Red Dragon demo game thread
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Old 04-23-2008, 04:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

This has been a battle of balance that has raged on for many an hour in my gaming group, why are wizards and sorcerors (we play D&D3.5, mostly) so powerful compared to fighters, monks, or rogues. And the debate has always come down to the circumstances of the fight. Wizards (in GURPS, most characters actually) can be built to have good capabilities against any type of threat, but not necessarily every type of threat. In D&D3.5, the issue is always "Does the Wizard have extended defensive spells up, how far away is the fighter, and do I have spell X, Y, or Z, and who won initiative?" Under the ideal conditions, or semi-ideal, the fighter usually is thought to have wound up a pile of ash or dust before even reaching the wizard (in some cases, even taking an action). If the wizard doesn't have a situation that plays into his advantages, then the battle usually ends in one round with the fighter killing the wizard in one hit. I have hated this arms race mentality among my fellow players, because it has too much of a video-gamesque taste to it. Why don't the bland, flavorless numbers, support a balance of Wizard vs. Fighter where there will mathematically be always a 50% chance of either achieving victory on a flat, featureless landscape? Once you start looking at, and including variables of story and setting, then the balance becomes quite apparent.

The wizard, targeted by a ninja clan for death, is walking down the crowded streets of a market city. He's doing his best to keep an eye out for danger. He does his best, but having spent a ton of his points on IQ and Magery and a book full of spells, he's not doing a very good job noticing whats out of place. He kind of wishes that he's brought along the battle-scarred veteran who's seen the world and could have noticed that fellow with the yellow cap and foreign features didn't belong. The battle-scarred veteran might have noticed this man was coming too close, purposefully. Now the mage feels a sudden pang of pain in his back, nothing fatal, but the burning sensation of the deadly poison entering his veins makes him wish he'd spent some points on healing poison and instead of being a combat machine.

I played in a game where I often wondered "Why am I playing a rogue?" because the DM would never allow me to use any stealth skills and the fighters always kicked down the doors and started fights. All those points in hide, move silently, and the sneaky attacks were all useless and I was just a fighter that did half the damage of the other fighters.
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