Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-23-2008, 08:42 AM   #1
griffin
 
griffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Creating a cinematic martial artist requires a lot of points. The templates created for such characters seem to be around 250 points. For 150 points you can build a more realistic martial artist, but these are far weaker than the mage counter parts. At 250 points the cinematic martial artists don't seem to me to stack up well against 250 point wizards.

Maybe I'm missing something, but although Martial Arts provided lots of options, Trained By a Master, still doesn't seem like it's worth the points, especially when compared against Magery. Yes, I know when there's no mana magery becomes worthless, but in most fantasy campaigns that won't happen all that often.
griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 08:47 AM   #2
Figleaf23
Banned
 
Figleaf23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

IMHO, the only way to make non-mage characters remotely competitive is to load them with high levels of Magic Resistance and Mana Damper.
Figleaf23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 08:52 AM   #3
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but although Martial Arts provided lots of options, Trained By a Master, still doesn't seem like it's worth the points, especially when compared against Magery.
I think there may be *some* imbalance there, particularly at the lower point levels, but you may be missing a few points.

1) Most of a martial artist's abilities, cinematic or not, are likely to be directly applicable in combat. There's likely to be a lot of kicking the heck out of the mage before a spell can really go off. The martial artist's main weakness is ranged combat, and some may not even be weak in that respect, taking Throwing Art or Zen Archery and such.

2) Defending against mages, don't forget that the cinematic martial artist will tend to have relatively high HT and Will both; a lot of Regular spells will be easily resisted, especially at ranges greater than a few yards. Missile spells can be dodged. So a fair number of spells may end up not working against the martial artist. Defending against martial artists, the mage's options mostly come down to Blocking spells and Missile Shield or Reverse Missiles against missile weapons.

3) In terms of damage potential, the use of Power Blow (especially at high enough levels to be able to do one each turn) can be a pretty close match to what most mages can do with missile spells (at least without additional turns of concentration), and Pressure Points can do a pretty good job of simulating the effects of many offensive Body Control spells. The spells also have a greater FP cost.

Not that 250-point mages that're optimized for combat can't be scary, because they can.
vitruvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 09:41 AM   #4
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

I think that a cinematic martial artist is priced just about right. The trouble is that wizards are rather cheap for what they can do.

However, there are catches. Wizards always need that minimum 1 second to cast (4e got rid of instant spells), generally pay FP, and are ineffective when there's no mana. A cinematic martial artist can do most of what he does in 0 time and for 0 FP, unless he insists on every blow being a Power Blow, and he can do so anywhere. In head-to-head combat, it's possible that a wizard with the advantage of distance could prevail, but if he's within grappling range . . . not so much. After then 11th fight of the day without much of a rest, the martial artist is still fighting, while the wizard is down to his last FP and reduced to casting Itch spells or something. And in no mana, the wizard is about as useful in a fight as a college professor shouting mathematical theorems at the enemy.

What it amounts to is "What do you want to be good at?" Fighting? Endurance? Flashy, save-the-day moments? Functioning anywhere?

And it's also important to question the entire concept of going head to head. A martial artist with good levels of Body Control and Mental Strength can resist just about anything. If he has Enhanced Dodge or Parry Missile Weapons, he can also avoid unresisted Missile spells. And if he uses Invisibility Art, he might not even be a target.

Finally, don't overlook all the special rules in Martial Arts that only apply to those with TbaM or WM. If the GM is concerned about martial artist vs. wizard balance, he can just let those with TbaM or WM make 3+ Rapid Strikes, use chambara defenses, and be the only ones allowed to use extra effort in combat. Believe me when I say that those things right there will make TbaM worth the points.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 10:01 AM   #5
griffin
 
griffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Figleaf23
IMHO, the only way to make non-mage characters remotely competitive is to load them with high levels of Magic Resistance and Mana Damper.
That doesn't work unless you go with Switchable on Mana Damper and add similar enhancements on Magic Resistance. Loss of using healing potions and the ability to receive healing via spells is too great a disadvantage. Of course, if there is non-mana based Healing, then you may be able to do this. However, even Herb Lore is based on mana so that won't get you around the issue when using Mana Damper and MR.

Personally, I think they should not have made the resistance roll on spells that aren't normally resisted based on MR+HT. I think just having them based on MR (as someone pointed out on another thread) would have been reasonable.
griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 10:08 AM   #6
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin

Of course, if there is non-mana based Healing, then you may be able to do this.
Once you open the door to chi-based abilities, it seems bizarre to stop. At that point, make chi-, psi-, or spirit-based Healing possible. If you're using Body Control, also note that those who have it can use it to apply First Aid to themselves just by thinking good thoughts (MA, p. 54).

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin

However, even Herb Lore is based on mana so that won't get you around the issue when using Mana Damper and MR.
Well, maybe. Consider how DF treats this as a druidic ability that draws its power from the "nature" power source rather than mana. Again, if you allow powers other than magic -- which you are, with chi -- then there's much to be said for making sure that powers other than magic can do most things. This includes healing and potion-brewing.

FWIW, I run a fantasy campaign where the party's primary warrior has MR. The only ramification it has is for alchemical healing potions, really. Healing is mostly done via spirit powers and occasionally divine ones, and medicines exist that aren't magical, but chi-based, cosmic, or weird science.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 10:10 AM   #7
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin
That doesn't work unless you go with Switchable on Mana Damper and add similar enhancements on Magic Resistance. Loss of using healing potions and the ability to receive healing via spells is too great a disadvantage. Of course, if there is non-mana based Healing, then you may be able to do this. However, even Herb Lore is based on mana so that won't get you around the issue when using Mana Damper and MR.
Divine healing is based on divine energies, not mana, and is usually available in the "standard fantasy campaign" where you start worrying about the balance between a wizard and a cinematic martial artist.

In an eastern themed game, Herb Lore and Esoteric Healing are chi-based effects, not magical, and I believe healing-based miracles would be in theme for pseudo-Buddhist saints. Spirits and gods also are a very in-genre source of miraculous effects in a "Mysterious East" fantasy game.

In a standard DF game, Magic Resistance won't interfere with Clerical and Holy Warrior healing powers, although it will zap the spells. In other types of fantasy games, it may not (I wouldn't rule that way in a more fully fleshed out game, for instance).
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 10:14 AM   #8
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

In DF, things were set up specifically so that clerics and holy warriors could acquire a lay-on-hands ability that would work on everyone equally, regardless of MR, SM, and other considerations. For that matter, martial artists can buy Regeneration there. Whether or not you play DF, the lesson is that once you go beyond one flavor of magic, there's a certain obligation to consider lots of different ways of doing the same thing. If Magery-based magic is favored, then yes, wizards will be too powerful.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 10:57 AM   #9
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
In DF, things were set up specifically so that clerics and holy warriors could acquire a lay-on-hands ability that would work on everyone equally, regardless of MR, SM, and other considerations.
Highlight mine. I've just realized that SM 1 barbarian with 26 HP gets twice as much healing, without the healer having to spend 2x FP. Zounds. And a SM2 Ogre Barbarian with 26 HP doesn't get totally hozed (3x FP for 2x healing).

Zounds indeed!
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 11:07 AM   #10
griffin
 
griffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default Re: Cinematic Martial Artist too expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno
Divine healing is based on divine energies, not mana, and is usually available in the "standard fantasy campaign" where you start worrying about the balance between a wizard and a cinematic martial artist.

In an eastern themed game, Herb Lore and Esoteric Healing are chi-based effects, not magical, and I believe healing-based miracles would be in theme for pseudo-Buddhist saints. Spirits and gods also are a very in-genre source of miraculous effects in a "Mysterious East" fantasy game.

In a standard DF game, Magic Resistance won't interfere with Clerical and Holy Warrior healing powers, although it will zap the spells. In other types of fantasy games, it may not (I wouldn't rule that way in a more fully fleshed out game, for instance).
OK, that's good. I'll need to check if this is the case with Banestorm. I think Banestorm treats Herb Lore as just the same as Alchemist, but with nature based material. I still haven't bought any of the DF PDFs yet. Which one deals with non-mana based healing powers?
griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.