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Old 03-08-2018, 09:22 PM   #661
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Two simple ways to get more talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea View Post
Everyone has been talking about ways to get more talents, adjusting some of the talents make sense. ...

I would want to go with a KISS approach, so that knocks out mIQ and Rick's Superscripts these work but they aren't my cup o'tea. If we were to do something like give one 2 Pt talent for free, up to the beginning character's IQ. In other words a 10 IQ character would have 12 pts to play with. He wouldn't have to use all his IQ either I often save points for when I get another IQ point. ...

Is this perfect? No of course not. Though it does allow for additional talents without having to rewrite most of the rules.
Hi Bayarea, everyone.
My system works well in my campaign, and in the campaigns by people using my rules, but I can't see Steve using it in the new TFT.

What I suggested was simply reduce the cost of most talents. That is as simple as it gets. New players look up Mimic and instead of it costing 3 mIQ, it costs 1. Instead of Knife costing 1 mIQ, it costs 1/2. No new rules or anything to remember at all.

Alternately, change the talents to be an INCLUDES relationship rather than a REQUIRES relationship. So right now you have to buy thief and then buy Master Thief (Master Thief REQUIRES you to already have Thief). You could make it that Thief costs 2 mIQ, but Master Thief costs 3 mIQ, but INCLUDES Thief for free. So spending 3 mIQ (and having a 12+ IQ) would give you both talents.

Right now there is a very simple relationship: if you have 12 IQ then you get 12 memory to go with it. I would rather take one of the above two systems, than require people to remember that if you have a 12 IQ, then you have 14 mIQ.

Warm regards, Rick

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 03-08-2018 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Fixed grammar.
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Old 03-08-2018, 09:55 PM   #662
Bayarea
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Two simple ways to get more talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Bayarea, everyone.
My system works well in my campaign, and in the campaigns by people using my rules, but I can't see Steve using it in the new TFT.

What I suggested was simply reduce the cost of most talents. That is as simple as it gets. New players look up Mimic and instead of it costing 3 mIQ, it costs 1. Instead of Knife costing 1 mIQ, it costs 1/2. No new rules or anything to remember at all.

Alternately, change the talents to be an INCLUDES relationship rather than a REQUIRES relationship. So right now you have to buy thief and then buy Master Thief (Master Thief REQUIRES you to already have Thief). You could make it that Thief costs 2 mIQ, but Master Thief costs 3 mIQ, but INCLUDES Thief for free. So spending 3 mIQ (and having a 12+ IQ) would give you both talents.

Right now there is a very simple relationship: if you have 12 IQ then you get 12 memory to go with it. I would rather take one of the above two systems, than require people to remember that if you have a 12 IQ, then you have 14 mIQ.

Warm regards, Rick
Hi Rick I always read your rules with enthusiasm, as you say your rules work for your campaign. To put them into the TFT most of the rules would have to be rewritten, fST for berserking and other things, all the Talents for IQ superscripts and all the combat for sDX are just some examples. So as you say it is unlikely to have that level of rewrite.

Obviously changing the talents cost is another option, however I don't think the talents are 2x too expensive. Also this means relearning every talent cost I have most of them memorized and I suspect other do too. So if you change a few like Mimic, Fencing and Monster Follower that's not a big deal. I just don't think enough talents are overpriced to justify reducing them all.

Obviously my solution doesn't work for you, but it was just an idea that might be a little bit easier than changing every talent. Maybe doing something as simple as making Sword, Polearm and Ax/Mace 1 IQ each might do the trick, as I don't think getting enough talents with experience is the problem. Again I am just throwing an idea out there, personally I am okay if the talents don't change much, i was just looking at something that won't require a big rewrite.

Last edited by Bayarea; 03-08-2018 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 03-08-2018, 11:25 PM   #663
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Two simple ways to get more talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea View Post
Hi Rick I always read your rules with enthusiasm, as you say your rules work for your campaign. To put them into the TFT most of the rules would have to be rewritten, fST for berserking and other things, all the Talents for IQ superscripts and all the combat for sDX are just some examples. So as you say it is unlikely to have that level of rewrite.

Obviously changing the talents cost is another option, however I don't think the talents are 2x too expensive. Also this means relearning every talent cost I have most of them memorized and I suspect other do too. So if you change a few like Mimic, Fencing and Monster Follower that's not a big deal. I just don't think enough talents are overpriced to justify reducing them all. ...
Hi Bayarea, everyone.
Actually my superscript rules don't require rewriting everything. The half page of rules and half page of examples pretty much do it.

I show costs that are paid in fatigue ST as fST, but that can be done without the superscript rules at all. It just shows costs more clearly.

I've added a lot of new talents, and I think Steve should as well. Someone pointed out that most jobs in TFT had two levels of talents. Thief and Master Thief. Sword and Fencing. Bow and Missile Weapons, etc. But I like to have more skills to distinguish beginners from true masters.

Anyway, I've played a long time with talents being cheaper and it has not harmed play. I'm used to people having twice as many talents as the base game.

Looking at two of my examples, Knife going from 1 memory to 1/2 a memory is a 50% drop in price but Master Thief (3), INCLUDING Thief (2), reduces 4 memory to 3, or 75% of the current cost. I certainly don't think any harm would be done to TFT if the talents cost 3/4 to 1/2 of their current price. In fact it would be a great good: heroes would be less overshadowed by wizards and Conan could have a decent number of talents at reasonable IQ for him.

Of course, the cost is that you would have to learn new memory prices.

8-O

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:59 PM   #664
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

It seems to me the main talent issues are:

* Some reasonable character designs need higher minimum IQ than seems appropriate to be able to fit the talents in their heads.

* Increasing IQ to be able to fit enough talents leads to more characters with high IQ, which blurs the distinction of which characters are smart and observant etc.

* Increasing IQ for experienced characters leads to IQ ability-level inflation which applies to all sorts of IQ rolls.

* Characters with talents tend to be more capable than those without, but that isn't taken into account for EP costs or estimating character ability level, unless/until someone spends EP on IQ.

* Character development is always about increasing attributes since there's nothing else to spend EP on, leading to powerful characters tending to have rather high attributes, making them generically good at everything and making most any sort of 3d6 roll, which become dull. It'd be nice if there were something else to do with EP, so that might not happen so much.

* Some fighting styles have an expert-level talent (sword, missiles, thrown) and some don't (axe, pole, shield, peculiars), and then Unarmed Combat has five and requires 11 memory points and IQ 14. Seems off.

* The rules for forgetting talents and forgetting talents being studied are a bit weird.

To me, it seems like reducing talent costs doesn't solve many of those, but that all of that could be neatly addressed by adding some nice talents (more expert talents, armor-wearing talent that reduces armor DX penalty, other tricks), and then letting EP be spend on getting talents without raising IQ but with some revised study rules, and adjusting the EP curve for increasing attributes so it starts getting really steep at about 38 points.
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:31 PM   #665
JLV
 
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
It seems to me the main talent issues are:

* Some reasonable character designs need higher minimum IQ than seems appropriate to be able to fit the talents in their heads.

* Increasing IQ to be able to fit enough talents leads to more characters with high IQ, which blurs the distinction of which characters are smart and observant etc.

* Increasing IQ for experienced characters leads to IQ ability-level inflation which applies to all sorts of IQ rolls.

* Characters with talents tend to be more capable than those without, but that isn't taken into account for EP costs or estimating character ability level, unless/until someone spends EP on IQ.

* Character development is always about increasing attributes since there's nothing else to spend EP on, leading to powerful characters tending to have rather high attributes, making them generically good at everything and making most any sort of 3d6 roll, which become dull. It'd be nice if there were something else to do with EP, so that might not happen so much.

* Some fighting styles have an expert-level talent (sword, missiles, thrown) and some don't (axe, pole, shield, peculiars), and then Unarmed Combat has five and requires 11 memory points and IQ 14. Seems off.

* The rules for forgetting talents and forgetting talents being studied are a bit weird.

To me, it seems like reducing talent costs doesn't solve many of those, but that all of that could be neatly addressed by adding some nice talents (more expert talents, armor-wearing talent that reduces armor DX penalty, other tricks), and then letting EP be spend on getting talents without raising IQ but with some revised study rules, and adjusting the EP curve for increasing attributes so it starts getting really steep at about 38 points.
I have to agree -- this pretty nicely summarizes both the issues and the issues with the potential solutions to the issues. I'd like to see something similar.
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:43 PM   #666
Jim Kane
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
* Some fighting styles have an expert-level talent (sword, missiles, thrown) and some don't (axe, pole, shield, peculiars), and then Unarmed Combat has five
This is something I would like to see re-examined to determine if there is any desirability/feasibility to have Tiered Levels for ALL Talents.

Consider if you will: FLAIL III, WOODSMAN V, SHIELD II, or PHSYCKER IV - could this be used in some way to keep ST 0=DEAD as the rule, AND yet, satisfy those who are asking for a DEAD=FULLY NEG ST Rule change - as a better way to improve the game overall with a high-level of detail, without having to re-work the root-design, and define the distinction between characters more fully, while also expressing how characters play more efficiently?

.
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Old 03-09-2018, 04:54 PM   #667
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: Problems with Illusions in Adv. Wiz.

My main problem with illusions was that generally they weren't really there but occasionally they were. For example, illusions would walk over pits of which the wizard was unaware, but wizards could see through their eyes and therefore use them as scouts.

I would prefer if wizards couldn't see through the eyes of illusions.

I would oppose making illusions real knots of force that do real damage, this makes them just another kind of summoned monster.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:31 PM   #668
Bayarea
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Two simple ways to get more talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Bayarea, everyone.
Actually my superscript rules don't require rewriting everything. The half page of rules and half page of examples pretty much do it.

I show costs that are paid in fatigue ST as fST, but that can be done without the superscript rules at all. It just shows costs more clearly.

I've added a lot of new talents, and I think Steve should as well. Someone pointed out that most jobs in TFT had two levels of talents. Thief and Master Thief. Sword and Fencing. Bow and Missile Weapons, etc. But I like to have more skills to distinguish beginners from true masters.

Anyway, I've played a long time with talents being cheaper and it has not harmed play. I'm used to people having twice as many talents as the base game.

Looking at two of my examples, Knife going from 1 memory to 1/2 a memory is a 50% drop in price but Master Thief (3), INCLUDING Thief (2), reduces 4 memory to 3, or 75% of the current cost. I certainly don't think any harm would be done to TFT if the talents cost 3/4 to 1/2 of their current price. In fact it would be a great good: heroes would be less overshadowed by wizards and Conan could have a decent number of talents at reasonable IQ for him.

Of course, the cost is that you would have to learn new memory prices.

8-O

Warm regards, Rick.
Hi Rick and all,

Everyone is always bringing up Conan, if you read the books he get pretty smart. Sure as a youth he is strong and not particularly educated, but in the later books he is in his 30's with a ton of experience. So it wouldn't outside the realm that he could have a 15 or better IQ score.

Also he is in armor plenty of the time in the books (Maille or leather jerkin, but a least once in full plate) plus he probably is strong enough to wear it without much penalty.

If your running that type of a campaign then a little fudging is probably required, but my 12 year old and 8 year old twins are learning how to make new characters on a regular basis. They learned last week not to shoot arrows into the HTH pile with the Gargoyle and 2 PC in it. ;-O.
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Old 03-09-2018, 05:36 PM   #669
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

I'm not a big fan of weapon-specific talents and here's why:

Hypothetical A: Two equally capable heroes, Gladius the swordsman and Hastatus the spearman, are captured by the villains, who take away their sword and spear respectively. When the heroes escape, they have to fight their way out with spears taken from defeated guards.
  • Case A1: Gladius is just as good as Hastatus.
  • Case A2: Gladius is not quite as good as Hastatus.
  • Case A3: Gladius is nowhere near as good as Hastatus.

Hypothetical B: Ericius is a simple character design with one weapon, a spatha, used under all circumstances. Vulpes is modelled after a professional warrior of the Greek, Roman or Viking period and carries a wide variety of weapons: a javelin he throws before contact, a spear for the initial contact, a shield, a spatha-like sword for whacking people over the shields, a short stabby sword for between the shields, a dagger for just in case, etc.
  • Case B1: Ericius and Vulpes are equally good at fighting with a spatha, Vulpes gains flexibility for nothing.
  • Case B2: Ericius is a little better at fighting with a spatha, Vulpes only pays a modest cost for flexibility.
  • Case B3: Vulpes has paid a fortune for flexibility, and is much less capable than Ericius.

For my taste, A2 and B2 are preferred from a role-playing point of view and probably also more realistic. I'd prefer to see a system where this is true.

Standard TFT is more toward the A3/B3 end of the spectrum. In addition, some GMs introduce higher levels of talents that are specific to particular weapons (Sword 3, etc.). These push the game even more toward the A3/B3 end of the spectrum. It's really expensive to buy the high levels in lots of different weapons so characters get strongly committed to their preferred weapon.

In a game I ran I introduced All Weapons as a cheap talent that reduced the -4 DX modifier for not having a weapon talent to -1 DX. (It had as a prerequisite having learnt some weapon talents, I think two points worth.) This was an attempt to push the game back to A2/B2. If anyone has any other thoughts on the subject, in particular what worked in real games, I'd like to hear them.
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Old 03-09-2018, 06:56 PM   #670
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Two simple ways to get more talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea View Post
Hi Rick and all,

Everyone is always bringing up Conan, if you read the books he get pretty smart. ...
Hi Bayarea, everyone.
I actually agree with you. King Conan was no dummy. However, mentioning his name was a short hand for "I want to play a tough fighter who is not a brain trust, but has lots of talents. Can't be done in TFT."

Warm regards, Rick.
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