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Old 01-02-2010, 08:30 AM   #1
B9anders
 
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Default A few grappling questions (or ten)

I've been paying some closer attention to the grappling rules lately and I have a few questions in regards to this:

1. Pinning

A: B370 says that someone who is pinned is 'helpless'. B423, in the rules for instant death, says that if a helpless person is attacked in an obviously lethal way (such as a cut throat), he is dead. If I have someone pinned and fast-draw a knife, can I then conclude that this is it for the opponent (assuming I make my all-out determined, telegraphed, targeted attack to the neck)?

B. In lieu of same, I presume that, being helpless, the pinned foe has no active defences either, other than trying to break free. Is this correct?

2. Positions & Hands

I am trying to get a hold of all the modifiers for positions etc when grappling.

Suppose I grapple someone, succesfully execute a judo sacrifice throw so that I land on top of someone, both of us facing down but with me on top and my opponent still grappled.

A. What is the situation here? My opponent is now at -8 to hit (-4 for being prone, another -4 from being grappled) and -6/-7 to defend (-3 from being prone, -2 for being attacked from behind, another -1 to dodge and -2 to parry for being grappled). I myself am at -4 to hit and -3 to defend, also for being prone. Is this correct or have I missed some factors?

B. I would have presumed that the position of me being on top of him would be advantageous in regards to attempting a pin but as far as I can see, there are no modifiers for a pin except wrestling bonuses, the ground fighting perk and whatever additional or fewer limbs might be brought to bear. Is this correct?

C. According to MA119, someone attacking behind you has only the following options: A Wild Swing or a Back Strike with a weapon in a free hand; use Back Kick or Elbow Strike; try a Stamp Kick to his foot; or bite his arm or hand. I am assuming that with both of us facing down, a bite is not an option - are all the others?

D. If my opponent in said scenario is armed in one hand, does he suffer penalties for attempting to break free, or to the pinning contest, for holding on to his weapon?

E. I am not quite as strong as my opponent and want to pin, so I try to switch my arms for legs as per MA 118 for that +2 bonus in the pinning contest. Does this require a new attack (in that case I presume then at -4 for being prone and -2 for using the legs)? I am not clear from the description on whether all of this is a free action or simply releasing the arms is.

F. Edit: followup question - Am I correct in assuming having someone pinned with my legs I can also enjoy the full advantage of having two free hands? And could use one of them to gain another +2 in any contest to keep him pinned?

3. The Shielduser grappling

I am looking at this from the perspective of a fighter who normally likes to wear a light shield. She doesn't like bucklers, but is looking at the problems a shield poses to grappling and close combat. The -1 for DB is a negligible drawback, but there are other issues:

B287 says that someone carrying a shield can hold, but not wield, something in the shield hand, nor use items that require two free hands. MA224 however, says that a light shield can have a knife attack to the grip making knife attacks possible, albeit at -1 to skill.

A. I am wondering if the shieldhand is generally completely unusuable in all cases for grappling, whether it be for breaking free, pinning, shifting grips, etc?

B. Secondly, if the above is the case, can or should the special case of the knife and light shield extend to grappling with light shields as well?

C. If not, would you consider this permissible for a light shield with a perk? Or alternatively, would it be balanced for a perk to reduce the time for dropping a shield by one round (perhaps following a DX roll or similar), making it for a light shield a free action as for the buckler?

Last edited by B9anders; 01-02-2010 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

1. A default would be the pin ends as you get the knife. However depending on position they may or may not get a defence.

i. Armlock and then slit throat. A pin that inflicts pain, note the victim may struggle and may see the knife coming.

ii. Being helpless is not being able to either: avoid the attack or see it coming, as well as a critical hit.

Note that a multi limbed person could grapple (bear hug) if big enough and then go for a vital.

2. The shield user should have a DB minus to grapple but also the same minus to maintain as the victim has something to use against the grappler.

Not sure how often these situations should arise, if the victim breaks free on a crit you could say that the shield user is in an arm lock by the shield, this time the DB bonus is a minus for the shield user. Again using armlock to inflict pain or cause serious injury to the arm.

Last edited by smurf; 01-02-2010 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:38 AM   #3
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
1. A default would be the pin ends as you get the knife.
B370 explicitly says that once pinned, the pinner can free one hand (although he is now only at +5 in the contest to maintain it).

Quote:
i. Armlock and then slit throat. A pin that inflicts pain, note the victim may struggle and may see the knife coming.

ii. Being helpless is not being able to either: avoid the attack or see it coming, as well as a critical hit.
I am a bit confused here. Why should an arm lock enter the picture?
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:31 AM   #4
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

Quote:
Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
1. Pinning
A: B370 says that someone who is pinned is 'helpless'. B423, in the rules for instant death, says that if a helpless person is attacked in an obviously lethal way (such as a cut throat), he is dead. If I have someone pinned and fast-draw a knife, can I then conclude that this is it for the opponent (assuming I make my all-out determined, telegraphed, targeted attack to the neck)?
You wouldn't have to fast draw the knife. You have ten rounds to do with your victim what you wish. You could easily, let go with one hand as a free action and draw the knife on turn one, then attack on turn two. You don't lose the pin (since you can have someone pinned one handed). Looking at the rules it does look like your helpless person gets an insta-death...assuming you make the to hit roll for the neck.

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B. In lieu of same, I presume that, being helpless, the pinned foe has no active defences either, other than trying to break free. Is this correct?
Hm...I don't know an official answer to this one. Though it does sort of imply that, since you can't move at all, you can't very well dodge or parry.

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2. Positions & Hands
Suppose I grapple someone, succesfully execute a judo sacrifice throw so that I land on top of someone, both of us facing down but with me on top and my opponent still grappled.

A. What is the situation here? My opponent is now at -8 to hit (-4 for being prone, another -4 from being grappled) and -6/-7 to defend (-3 from being prone, -2 for being attacked from behind, another -1 to dodge and -2 to parry for being grappled). I myself am at -4 to hit and -3 to defend, also for being prone. Is this correct or have I missed some factors?
Well, there are a couple things. After the first round of this situation, your opponent can no longer defend against your attacks. Kromm has stated a few times, that if you start your attack behind your opponent and then attack them, they get no defenses. See also B391 (Defending Against Attacks from the Back) So, your victim gets no defenses at all after the first round of being in that situation.

You are at -4 to hit and -3 to defend for being prone...however.
You don't have the -4 for being prone if attempting to initiate a grapple with your legs since you are both laying down.
You are at -4 to attack, but not on Contests of Skill. At this point you should be going for the pin (which isn't penalized).

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B. I would have presumed that the position of me being on top of him would be advantageous in regards to attempting a pin but as far as I can see, there are no modifiers for a pin except wrestling bonuses, the ground fighting perk and whatever additional or fewer limbs might be brought to bear. Is this correct?
Yep. On the other hand, you don't have to worry about being hit really...since your foe is looking at a -8 to hit you at best...with the Wild Swing Cap at worst. So you can do a Committed Attack (Strong) and get some bonuses to that pin attempt without sacrificing too much.

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
C. According to MA119, someone attacking behind you has only the following options: A Wild Swing or a Back Strike with a weapon in a free hand; use Back Kick or Elbow Strike; try a Stamp Kick to his foot; or bite his arm or hand. I am assuming that with both of us facing down, a bite is not an option - are all the others?
Biting the arm or hand is still valid, because you are grappling him...which means your arms are wrapped around him somehow...which means he can try to bite them. Both of you facing down (or you behind him) are exactly what those options are made for.

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D. If my opponent in said scenario is armed in one hand, does he suffer penalties for attempting to break free, or to the pinning contest, for holding on to his weapon?
Armed with what?
If he keeps hold of his weapon, he only has 1 hand free, you on the other hand have 2 hands free. That means you have more hands free than he does. Which means you get a +3 to the pin attempt. Doesn't seem as if he suffers any penalty to break free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
E. I am not quite as strong as my opponent and want to pin, so I try to switch my arms for legs as per MA 118 for that +2 bonus in the pinning contest. Does this require a new attack (in that case I presume then at -4 for being prone and -2 for using the legs)? I am not clear from the description on whether all of this is a free action or simply releasing the arms is.
It is a new attack. You would Grapple with your legs, then let go of your arms as a free action. You don't suffer the -4 for being prone, only the -2 for the legs. MA79: "You only suffer penalties for a non-standing posture against a standing foe."

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3. The Shielduser grappling

I am looking at this from the perspective of a fighter who normally likes to wear a light shield. She doesn't like bucklers, but is looking at the problems a shield poses to grappling and close combat. The -1 for DB is a negligible drawback, but there are other issues:

B287 says that someone carrying a shield can hold, but not wield, something in the shield hand, nor use items that require two free hands. MA224 however, says that a light shield can have a knife attack to the grip making knife attacks possible, albeit at -1 to skill.

A. I am wondering if the shieldhand is generally completely unusuable in all cases for grappling, whether it be for breaking free, pinning, shifting grips, etc?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
B. Secondly, if the above is the case, can or should the special case of the knife and light shield extend to grappling with light shields as well?
No. The Knife is attached to the gripe of the shield...making that shield a combo weapon. The shield bearer is not gripping a separate knife. So no you can't be gripping a shield and also gripping somebody effectively with that same hand.

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C. If not, would you consider this permissible for a light shield with a perk? Or alternatively, would it be balanced for a perk to reduce the time for dropping a shield by one round (perhaps following a DX roll or similar), making it for a light shield a free action as for the buckler?
I say no to all counts. A Shield is strapped to your arm. That is what allows it to Slam...which a buckler can't. If you want the ease of dropping the weapon, use a buckler; if you want the ability to shield rush, use a shield.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
Well, there are a couple things. After the first round of this situation, your opponent can no longer defend against your attacks. Kromm has stated a few times, that if you start your attack behind your opponent and then attack them, they get no defenses. See also B391 (Defending Against Attacks from the Back) So, your victim gets no defenses at all after the first round of being in that situation.
Interesting. So basically, I can grapple with the legs at +2 (-2 for legs, +4 for telegraphed attack) and he gets no defences after that takedown. That takes someone in such a situation to another level of not-good.

Quote:
Yep. On the other hand, you don't have to worry about being hit really...since your foe is looking at a -8 to hit you at best...with the Wild Swing Cap at worst. So you can do a Committed Attack (Strong) and get some bonuses to that pin attempt without sacrificing too much.
I was under the impression those did not apply to pinning attempts. Are you certain of this?
What kind of bonus can a commited attack (or all-out attack) give to this? the damage bonus or the bonus to hit? Could the pinnee not do the same?

Thanks for the answers. Very informative.
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

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I was under the impression those did not apply to pinning attempts. Are you certain of this?
What kind of bonus can a commited attack (or all-out attack) give to this? the damage bonus or the bonus to hit? Could the pinnee not do the same?

Thanks for the answers. Very informative.
MA114, All-Out and Committed Attacks When Grappling covers this.

You can certainly use a Committed Attack (Strong) with your pin attempt, it gives a +1 to ST for that pin. Your pinnee can't take a Committed Attack to resist, because it isn't their turn. However, on their turn, they could make a Committed Attack attempt to Break Free....for a whole +1...and if they fail? They are at a -2 to your subsequent attempt to pin them.

I'm currently in Wrathchild's play by post Arena gladiator game. And we are, at the moment, in an unarmed tournament.

My character was up against an Orc.
The Orc decided to try Rapid Strikes to overwhelm by character.
I got a Judo Parry in.
Then I got the Arm Lock.
Then I Threw him from the lock.

He, prone, and desperate, decided to go for All-Out Attack (Double)...punching my groin. He got one shot in that gave me too high of a Shock Penalty for what I wanted to do...so I waited.
He missed the next All-Out Attack.

So...now he automatically fails any of those grappling contests.
I took an AoA (Double), switched my grip to his torso (1), and pinned him (2).

Now he's pinned and helpless for 10 seconds. And All I have to do is All-Out Attack (Strong) Knee Strike him in the groin over and over again until he surrenders. And after those 10 seconds...he can try and break free...but I'm at +10 in that contest...he probably won't succeed. Then I get to knee strike him in the groin AoA (Strong) for another 10 seconds with no danger to myself.

So yeah. Good times for me! Not so much for him.
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

I hadn't quite noticed the 10 seconds per freeing attempt for pinning. Does this mean I can safely pin someone with two hands, free one hand for 9 seconds to do whatever (ie slash his throat 8 times over just because I can), then, after having used up 8 of my opponents extra lives (I am pinning a cat), put my hand back on for the +10 bonus?

Or even take a round to safely AoA, telegraphed grapple him with my legs, then draw my knife with one hand to carve up his face for 7 seconds whilst practising my eye-gouging technique with the other, then put that hand on for the pin to get a +14 bonus the next time he tries to free himself?

Thanks!
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:20 PM   #8
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
I hadn't quite noticed the 10 seconds per freeing attempt for pinning. Does this mean I can safely pin someone with two hands, free one hand for 9 seconds to do whatever (ie slash his throat 8 times over just because I can), then, after having used up 8 of my opponents extra lives (I am pinning a cat), put my hand back on for the +10 bonus?
Yep.

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
Or even take a round to safely AoA, telegraphed grapple him with my legs, then draw my knife with one hand to carve up his face for 7 seconds whilst practising my eye-gouging technique with the other, then put that hand on for the pin to get a +14 bonus the next time he tries to free himself?

Thanks!
If you have your opponent pinned with your legs, then add in a hand to that pin before the break free attempt, for the Contest of ST that is the Break free you are at:
+10 for having a 2 limbed pin
+2 for those limbs being legs
+2 for the extra limb

+14...yep.

It really sucks to be the person you are carving up and eye-gouging.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

Decided to read the rules

Note there are several 'grabbing' methods:

Grappling... You must choose an action afterwards:

Takedown
Pin (must be on floor)
Choke/Strangle
Choke hold
Arm lock
Neck Snap or Wrench Limib

However the bit that says release your grip, ie one hand I would suggest that is a new contest.

Otherwise it is abuse to say I have you pinned with 2 arms and take advantage of that when with one arm for 9 nasty GURPS seconds).

Moreover, if this is done it may be easier for the GM to role the dice.

Contest of Strengths....
Fast Draw the knife
GM confirms whether or not you still have the player grappled.
If you win the opponent gets stabbed (add bonus of the pin etc)
If you fail the opponents gets away but you have a knife drawn and also the facing of the opponent is important... begin next combat round.

That's how I would play it.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: A few grappling questions (or ten)

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However the bit that says release your grip, ie one hand I would suggest that is a new contest.

Otherwise it is abuse to say I have you pinned with 2 arms and take advantage of that when with one arm for 9 nasty GURPS seconds).
B370 under pins doesn't say anything about a new contest. "If you win, your foe is helpless. You must stay there to hold him down, but you can free one of your hands for other actions." Doesn't say anything about having to make a new Break free attempt. Being pinned is really a bad situation for the person who is pinned.
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