Disabling a car's engine

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

No, because that was non-vital hits. Cars are less susceptible to those.

OK so why are they relatively that much more susceptible to vital hits than living targets ?

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Unliving has nothing to do with the strength or density of the material. Nothing whatsoever.

That's not my point (you talking about HPs here) my point was why are vital areas of unliving targets suddenly weaker in comparison to their surrounding matter than those of living targets?

This has nothing to do with living density/strength vs. unliving density/strength, but of unliving vitals vs. unliving non-vitals.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Unliving things can be made of steel, or superdense hypermaterials. Or they can be made of plastic. Or balsa wood. Or meat, for that matter.

And will have different levels of HP accordingly, the point being the 'heart' of each one will not be made of significantly softer balsa superdence, plastics meat etc.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There really is quite a distinction, and there's a very easy way to show it too. Zombies. They're made of basically the same substance as living humans, give or take some decay and trace phlebotenum, and even arranged the same way. But they're Unliving. Because the system that makes them go doesn't respond as badly to disruptions of small portions of the structure as the biological system of a living person does.

They also tend to lack vitals (depending on the iteration), TBH if you citing a fantasy monster Zombies to support you reasoning for cars engine blocks being particularly susceptible to small calibre rounds, I not sure what to tell you really.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It's not 'my system'. It is the actual rules.

OK granted, maybe you could answer the question though.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by chimchim

Gurps hp and damage are an abstraction. A vital hit to the engine block does not have to represent a penetration of the block its self to count as a vital hit. I am no mechanic nor weapons expert but I would expect most rounds sub .50bmg will bounce off the block into some equally vital part of the engine. After all the engine bay of a car is one place you dont want bullets bouncing around in.

I agree, that's why in my tweak they do 3x as much damage as they would elsewhere in the car, just not 15x as much if they are p-, 9x as much if they are p, 6x as worse if they are p+ and finally 3x as worse if they are p++

A sliding scale that seems to go in the wrong direction.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

OK so why are they relatively that much more susceptible to vital hits than living targets ?

Because the Vitals, practically by definition, cannot exhibit the properties that make non-vital areas less susceptible. The Unliving body is composed of stuff such that putting a hole in it only really disrupts whatever the hole actually passes through, which is what makes it comparatively resilient to penetrating attacks. Vitals are things which, when you disrupt them, mess up the entire system.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

That's not my point (you talking about HPs here) my point was why are vital areas of unliving targets suddenly weaker in comparison to their surrounding matter than those of living targets?

This has nothing to do with living density/strength vs. unliving density/strength, but of unliving vitals vs. unliving non-vitals.

They're not weaker. Weaker has nothing to do with it. That's the point. IT:Unliving does not resist bullets by being strong.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

They also tend to lack vitals (depending on the iteration), TBH if you citing a fantasy monster Zombies to support you reasoning for cars engine blocks being particularly susceptible to small calibre rounds, I not sure what to tell you really.

Not all zombies lack vitals. And the point is to illustrate that system is distinct from substance, remember?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Because the Vitals, practically by definition, cannot exhibit the properties that make non-vital areas less susceptible. The Unliving body is composed of stuff such that putting a hole in it only really disrupts whatever the hole actually passes through, which is what makes it comparatively resilient to penetrating attacks. Vitals are things which, when you disrupt them, mess up the entire system.

That's an argument for giving them the x3 damage not for ignoring the unliving mod, especially in the direction of favourable results to bullet size you have.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

They're not weaker. Weaker has nothing to do with it. That's the point. IT:Unliving does not resist bullets by being strong.

However the engine block is the thickest, heaviest, most dense part of the car. And you arguing that p- rounds should be 15x more effective against it than they are the wings.

I.e the reality of what we're talking about here (rounds of various sizes against engine blocks) rather invalidates abstract this is what unliving means arguments.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not all zombies lack vitals.

Maybe not but most zombie tend vitals tend to be about physically separating the brain stem, not many zombies go down with heart shots. basically stopping zombies and stopping sedans is apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

And the point is to illustrate that system is distinct from substance, remember?

which you haven't done, you're taking a fantasy creature and say aha that how cars work. You want system to be distinct from substance to the extent that you arguing that that the material the vital is made out of is irrelevant. It takes it too far. The reality is that although system is distinct from substance to an extent, system is still subject to substance.

If you want to go with zombies fine. They are unliving because of the outside force that reanimates them if they didn't have this they would be dead. This is the system

But they are still subject to the limitations of their substance as they can rot for example.

The car for example can have those wings that can be shot full of holes with no degradation of performance, because of the physical properties of the unliving material they are made of. They have an effect on each other.

In fact I'd argue that unliving isn't some entirely separate thing from living due to some absolute fundamental difference in either system or substance. Rather its the recognition that the thing in question while sharing some of the aspects of living target doesn't share others. Which is why you can still get no vitals etc. Homogeneous is obviously further removed again from living sharing even less in the way of living aspects, etc. etc

nor have you answered the question why are p- bullets 15x more effective when hitting teh engine block in comparison to the bodywork, but P++ are only 3x as effective.

In fact forget the abstract substance vs. effect argument (because it's just as true for P++ and P- anyway its just the results are less odd) and answer that last question because you've avoided it so far.

Ultimately both versions are an abstraction of a complex situation, it's just the one where you combine unliving multipliers with the x3 multiplier still rewards going for the vital, and keeps the point that shooting vehicles even in the engine block is a job best suited for big guns with big bullets, for the one that has small calibre SMG's and PDW's as effective car killers.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

That's an argument for giving them the x3 damage not for ignoring the unliving mod, especially in the direction of favourable results to bullet size you have.

There is no such thing as 'the unliving mod', and there is no x3 damage anywhere either. You're describing the situation in terms that are not at all how the rules work.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

However the engine block is the thickest, heaviest, most dense part of the car. And you arguing that p- rounds should be 15x more effective against it than they are the wings.

I.e the reality of what we're talking about here (rounds of various sizes against engine blocks) rather invalidates abstract this is what unliving means arguments.

Not really, since you're making an argument about what Unliving does/should do rather than an argument specifically about how to handle car engines. (How can I tell? Because you keep going on about wounding multipliers and never talk about DR or anything like that. Remember that pi- has nothing to do with penetrating power...a gauss gun that can shoot through an engine block with ease can be pi-.)

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Maybe not but most zombie tend vitals tend to be about physically separating the brain stem, not many zombies go down with heart shots. basically stopping zombies and stopping sedans is apples and oranges.

Again, not always.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

which you haven't done, you're taking a fantasy creature and say aha that how cars work.

Nope.

[Nereidalbel]

An engine block is the Vitals hit location of a car, but it also has Vitals DR to protect it from damage. Those Pi- rounds are going to have an issue getting past said DR.

[Langy]

Question: What actually happens if you shoot a sedan's engine block with a pistol? Or with a rifle, like in the OP?

Answer: With a pistol, not much. It won't even penetrate the block; completely stopped by DR unless it's a ridiculously big round, and even then it won't penetrate the cylinder (and thus won't probably disable the vehicle).

With a shotgun, similar to a big pistol round it won't penetrate the cylinder and thus probably won't disable the vehicle.

With a 5.56mm rifle, it still won't penetrate the cylinder. Even with a .30-06, it won't unless you're using AP ammo.

So: Any rules that say the vehicle is instantly disabled (reduced to 0 HP or less) by a hit from a small rifle is probably right out. The engine block should probably have more DR than the car overall, thus making it match reality.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Langy

So: Any rules that say the vehicle is instantly disabled (reduced to 0 HP or less) by a hit from a small rifle is probably right out.

Well, that was a dispute about whether the engine block is actually the vitals location. A severed fuel line will instantly disable a vehicle, as will a hit to the distributor, though it's unlikely you can hit either one at a mere -3.

[Mathulhu]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

An engine block is the Vitals hit location of a car...

...but the model for damage to the Vitals location does not behave in the same way as damage to the car's engine location. So why must one be designed to model the other?

Would it not be better to model the engine as the generic/default -0 ot hit target?
It is chose because it makes up the majority of the target that is required to be disabled before the target in entirety is disabled. Then the sub-locations of the engine can take the roll of the Vitals.

If the engine is the Vitals of the car then 15x as many shots required to disable the car by shooting the engine are fired through the passenger compartment then it should be equally disabled.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Langy

Question: What actually happens if you shoot a sedan's engine block with a pistol? Or with a rifle, like in the OP?

Answer: With a pistol, not much. It won't even penetrate the block; completely stopped by DR unless it's a ridiculously big round, and even then it won't penetrate the cylinder (and thus won't probably disable the vehicle).

With a shotgun, similar to a big pistol round it won't penetrate the cylinder and thus probably won't disable the vehicle.

With a 5.56mm rifle, it still won't penetrate the cylinder. Even with a .30-06, it won't unless you're using AP ammo.

So: Any rules that say the vehicle is instantly disabled (reduced to 0 HP or less) by a hit from a small rifle is probably right out. The engine block should probably have more DR than the car overall, thus making it match reality.

If I understand engines correctly, you don't need to penetrate the engine block itself for the engine to stop working. You can hit something important close to and vital to the engine itself, vital hose or two, the radiator, or something like that. Granted the effect will not be instantaneous.