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Old 10-03-2013, 08:40 AM   #21
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
while I agree you're right by RAW (or a reasonable interpretation of it), I personally combine both.
Not an uncommon houserule, it seems.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Otherwise you get car vitals that are 2x as vital as human vitals (if its hit by P, 3x as vital if it's hit by P- so we're saying compared to the rest of the car engine blocks are more susceptible to damage the smaller the bullet gets?). But a engine block is still made of thick metal*. Not helped by the fact that you probably getting at least a +1 to partially negate the -3 vitals mod due to SM.
No, you get car vitals that still twice as hardy as human vitals for the higher HP from being unliving. They are more vulnerable to bullets relative to the rest of the structure than the human vitals...which is entirely to be expected. Unliving things particularly resist piercing damage because most of their structure is relatively indifferent to having holes put in it. The vitals are the bits for which that is particularly untrue!
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:42 AM   #22
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Not an uncommon houserule, it seems.

No, you get car vitals that still twice as hardy as human vitals for the higher HP from being unliving.
Ok good point but that's more a point to do with mass and the way ST scales with it, and the fact that HP is tied to ST. I think the 2x hp for unliving is in recognition that a putting cars and people on the same scale will get you wonky results when you have car '4x as strong' as a human.



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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
They are more vulnerable to bullets relative to the rest of the structure than the human vitals...which is entirely to be expected. Unliving things particularly resist piercing damage because most of their structure is relatively indifferent to having holes put in it. The vitals are the bits for which that is particularly untrue!
are they? You're going to have to cite that an engine block is more vulnerable to tiny P- bullets when compared to the human heart is,

Human torso: p- x0.5 Human heart p- x3 therefore Human heart is 6x more susceptible

Car torso: p- x0.33r car engine block p- x3 therefore car engine block 9x more susceptible

and the engine block is 1.5x more susceptible to p- than the human heart is when compared to their 'chassis'.




The point about being more vulnerable than the rest of the structure in general is made by the x3 vital multiplier. I view unliving as an inherent description of the substance in question (including the substance of the vitals).

Part of the problem here is that the engine block is actually one of the tougher parts of the car As evidenced by the cover it gives. So it may be that engine block as whole isn't actually a very good candidate for being a vital. i.e yes if you get a bullet that penetrates into the engine block it's obviously not good but that actually a bit harder than just shooting through the hood. Actually someone mentioned location specific DR, maybe that is the way to go.

That all aside I think my examples fit reasonable expectation pretty well.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-04-2013 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:51 AM   #23
Mathulhu
 
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

I am not sure where I come down on the "do the modifiers for vitals and IT(unliving) multiply" question, but I am beginning to think the engine block is not the vitals of the car.

I think the engine block is more likely to be the Torso equivalent with the smaller more vulnerable components, on board computers, fuel lines, battery etc, being considered the Vitals.
The majority of the rest of the car is more like the limbs, capped damage, IT(no blood) and IT(unliving) combine to represent that there is very little to be damaged and a shot clean through with no lasting effects is entirely possible.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:08 AM   #24
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Ok good point but that's more a point to do with mass and the way ST scales with it, and the fact that HP is tied to ST. I think the 2x hp for unliving is in recognition that a putting cars and people on the same scale will get you wonky results when you have car '4x as strong' as a human.
I think you're wrong there. Unliving things are harder to actually stop, because they don't propagate trauma the way living tissues do.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
are they? You're going to have to cite that an engine block is more vulnerable to tiny P- bullets when compared to the human heart is,

Human torso: p- x0.5 Human heart p- x3 therefore Human heart is 6x more susceptible

Car torso: p- x0.33r car engine block p- x3 therefore car engine block 9x more susceptible

and the engine block is 1.5x more susceptible to p- than the human heart is when compared to their 'chassis'.
The car engine is much less vulnerable. After all, the car will have like four times the HP, DR, and the same wounding modifier for the vitals hit.

Now since you mean relatively...what do you think shooting a 'tiny' hole through a person's body does? Really rather a lot of unpleasantness, is what. Not too likely to physically incapacitate them, but bad things. What do you think shooting the same hole through the body of a car does? Most likely makes a few ventilation holes you could cover with pocket change and has no noticeable effect on function or sturdiness.

If you shoot a little hole through a person's heart or lungs or what have you, that's pretty bad. But if you shoot a hole through a car's engine block, what do you think happens?

Now, of course, you might not be able to shoot through the engine block...
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Part of the problem here is that the engine block is actually one of the tougher parts of the car As evidenced by the cover it gives. So it may be that engine block as whole isn't actually a very good candidate for being a vital. i.e yes you get e bullet that penetrates into the engine block and its obviously not good but that actually a bit harder than just shooting through the hood. Actually someone mentioned location specific DR, maybe that is the way to go.
Yeah, the engine block is, I think, a clear Vitals location, but may be a poor target for low-powered small-arms, which suggests it should be modeled with extra DR or something. No vehicle writeup seems to actually do it, but it would make sense to me.

I say it's a clear vitals location because it is a good place to shoot to stop a car with higher-power weapons, like a .50 BMG rifle or machinegun.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
The point about being more vulnerable than the rest of the structure in general is made by the x3 vital multiplier. I view unliving as an inherent description of the substance in question (including the substance of the vitals).
Unliving describes the system more than the substance, I would say. An android covered in biotech artificial skin would still be straightforwardly Unliving.

And the idea that it changes the nature of vitals seems exactly contradicted by the actual rules, so.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:42 AM   #25
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I think you're wrong there. Unliving things are harder to actually stop, because they don't propagate trauma the way living tissues do.
Thats my point, and since i'm talking about applying the unliving wounding mods with the vital wounding mod rather than replacing them with the vitals mods, I think I making that point to you?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The car engine is much less vulnerable. After all, the car will have like four times the HP, DR, and the same wounding modifier for the vitals hit.
Well the car also outweighs the man as well. its a relative comparison not and absolute one.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Now since you mean relatively...what do you think shooting a 'tiny' hole through a person's body does? Really rather a lot of unpleasantness, is what. Not too likely to physically incapacitate them, but bad things. What do you think shooting the same hole through the body of a car does? Most likely makes a few ventilation holes you could cover with pocket change and has no noticeable effect on function or sturdiness.
Yes again a point that seems to reinforce making cars and their engine blocks more resistant to such small bullets not less?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If you shoot a little hole through a person's heart or lungs or what have you, that's pretty bad. But if you shoot a hole through a car's engine block, what do you think happens?
Only its rather a lot less likely that such a small bullet will be able to shoot a hole through the engine block isn't it (even taking relative HP into account).

In terms of tissue there strength and density etc, teh heart and lungs are roughly analogous to the rest of the bodies tissues. It's the impairment of their function that makes them well vital. They are not easier to damage then the rest of the body, its just that the effects of damage on them is more pronounced.

By removing the unliving penalty your basically double dipping, you saying that not only is a engine block vital in terms of the repercussion of any damage done to and how it effects the vehicle in question but that its also made of material that is it else far more susceptible to damage.

I.e you've made the engine block analogous to a big living muscle under the hood that vital to the function of the car, not a big metal unliving component that's under the hood that's vital to the function of the car.

Now that happens to an extent with living targets when you replace the weapon wounding mod with the location mod, but in general it goes the other way and isn't as pronounced

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Now, of course, you might not be able to shoot through the engine block...

Yeah, the engine block is, I think, a clear Vitals location, but may be a poor target for low-powered small-arms, which suggests it should be modeled with extra DR or something. No vehicle writeup seems to actually do it, but it would make sense to me.

I say it's a clear vitals location because it is a good place to shoot to stop a car with higher-power weapons, like a .50 BMG rifle or machinegun.
Well I agree, more over I think my examples showed that pretty well. You can one shot it with a 20mm cannon, pretty much take out with 1x 12.7mm

But will need to hit a lot with 9mm,

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Unliving describes the system more than the substance, I would say. An android covered in biotech artificial skin would still be straightforwardly Unliving.
I don't think that's as much of distinction as you make out, system and substance are not that easy to separate and are to extent dependent on each other to be possible in RL..

To take your example sure if it's unlinking metal underneath I agree, but that's the opposite of what your showing which is a metal car with a metal body with the effects of unliving, but the cars vitals are as prone to damage as living tissue vitals.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
And the idea that it changes the nature of vitals seems exactly contradicted by the actual rules, so.
Only I'm not changing the nature of vitals, its still 3x worse to hit in the vitals in both versions, you are in fact changing the nature of vitals in a car because you penalising the unliving vital more than the living one.

all else being equal a P wound to a human vital is 3x worse than wound to the body, in yours it's 9x worse for cars

a p- wound is 6x worse for humans, 15x worse in cars

a P+ wound is 2x worse for humans, 6x worse in cars

a P++ wound is 1.5x worse for a human, 3x worse in cars

Now if you were arguing that engine blocks are more susceptible to large calibre rounds than I might agree, but your system actually favours the smaller rounds.


Sorry, some of yesterdays posts were based on p- wounds being x1/3 in unliving not x1/5!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-04-2013 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:18 PM   #26
chimchim
 
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

Gurps hp and damage are an abstraction. A vital hit to the engine block does not have to represent a penetration of the block its self to count as a vital hit. I am no mechanic nor weapons expert but I would expect most rounds sub .50bmg will bounce off the block into some equally vital part of the engine. After all the engine bay of a car is one place you dont want bullets bouncing around in.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:33 PM   #27
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yes again a point that seems to reinforce making cars and their engine blocks more resistant to such small bullets not less?
No, because that was non-vital hits. Cars are less susceptible to those.
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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
In terms of tissue there strength and density etc, teh heart and lungs are roughly analogous to the rest of the bodies tissues. It's the impairment of their function that makes them well vital. They are not easier to damage then the rest of the body, its just that the effects of damage on them is more pronounced.

By removing the unliving penalty your basically double dipping, you saying that not only is a engine block vital in terms of the repercussion of any damage done to and how it effects the vehicle in question but that its also made of material that is it else far more susceptible to damage.

I.e you've made the engine block analogous to a big living muscle under the hood that vital to the function of the car, not a big metal unliving component that's under the hood that's vital to the function of the car.
Unliving has nothing to do with the strength or density of the material. Nothing whatsoever.

Unliving things can be made of steel, or superdense hypermaterials. Or they can be made of plastic. Or balsa wood. Or meat, for that matter.
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I don't think that's as much of distinction as you make out, system and substance are not that easy to separate and are to extent dependent on each other to be possible in RL.
There really is quite a distinction, and there's a very easy way to show it too. Zombies. They're made of basically the same substance as living humans, give or take some decay and trace phlebotenum, and even arranged the same way. But they're Unliving. Because the system that makes them go doesn't respond as badly to disruptions of small portions of the structure as the biological system of a living person does.
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but your system actually favours the smaller rounds.
It's not 'my system'. It is the actual rules.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...
As always, the vitals hit location wounding modifier replaces the wounding modifier for the damage type.

What? Don't they stack?
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:05 PM   #29
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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What? Don't they stack?
...no. Seriously, the Basic Set is crystal clear on this.

EDIT: as I recently cited in another thread:
"Certain attacks can target the vitals for increased damage. Increase the wounding modifier for an impaling or any piercing attack to x3. Increase the wounding modifier for a tight-beam burning attack to x2"
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Old 10-05-2013, 05:30 AM   #30
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Default Re: Disabling a car's engine

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Wait, so with only -3 I can negate a 40 point advantage AND get triple damage?
What did you mean? Unliving is 20 points.
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