Is the Wizards' Guild international

[JohnPaulB]

ITL p 60 says:

A city of 25,000 or more will be the headquarters of a Grand Chapter, which takes in all the nearby Chapters and Senior Chapters. There is no formal organization above the Grand Chapter level except for the (rarely-called) Allmoot - a gathering of all the available Grand Masters to discuss some severe problem.

1. Is there an overriding Cidri Wizards' Guild which has junior chapters all over the world?... the worldwide Top Dog corporation organization.
2. Is the world of Cidri made up of many independent Wizards' Guilds by continent or country, each one a Top Dog corporation for its domain.
3. Is there some other type of guild structure?

• If it is Independent Wizards' Guilds by country, does the king have power over the guild or does the guild's power make it completely independent of rulership influence?
• If it is Independent Wizards' Guild by country, is there an overriding UN type Wizards' Guild agency for ironing out different WG alliances and upsets and promotions?

Yes, I know its up to the GM to decide these things, but just trying to get a grasp of the situation. (I'm sure we've covered this in this forum before, but searching it is sometimes difficult.)

So, is there a Wizards' Guild for each nation that does its own regulationing of that country's wizards? Let's say Elyntia's Wizards' Guild. Tanander would have had its own (and probably there is still one extant in the area). Ardonirane and Ars Vaskul might have their own, but Ryuvatar would refuse to have one.

If each nation has its own Grand Chapter, then the norms of that nation would probably dictate Guild customs for that nation. That would mean that National Guild regulated its own members.

Would one national Wizards' Guild negotiate with another Wizards's Guild for mutual exchange?
If Joe Wiz of Ardonirane goes to Elyntia's Kel, would they accept his Ardonirane membership card and can he have his wizard's funds transferred from Ardonirane to Kel easily or would membership not be recognized and red-tape?

Any comments?

[hcobb]

In my campaigns this depends on the relations between the Grand Masters (who attempt to provide surface level cooperation for political reasons) and other factions in the guilds (who have fewer constraints).

So if a somewhat hostile Grand Master (or other faction) sees little cost in granting your request while at the same time one upping your guild chapter they may just grant it.

"What, your chapter doesn't have that spell? Yet we hear all the time how advanced they are. Of course we have it. Feel free to come on in. Furgis, go fetch the volume and help this poor soul understand the spell. No charge, as we understand how your guild chapter struggles."

[larsdangly]

I would say all the guilds (wizards, mechanicians, thieves, drapers, fishmongers, etc.) work the way the GM wants them to work (or, if they can get their characters into positions of power, the way the players want them to work). But if you are looking for ideas, my approach is to have two layers of diversity, depending on how powerful the group is and how it has chosen to organize itself.

There is a 'regional' sort of organizational structure, meaning in some large regions a guild might be powerful, hierarchical and effective at controlling people involved in its business. Sort of like the Catholic church in medieval France. In another region, far enough away from the first to develop its own character, what is nominally the same guild might be more like the mafia - powerful but corrupt and plagued by conflicts with other power centers it views as enemies. Sort of like the Catholic church in Renaissance Italy. In another it might have been effectively taken over and subsumed by the interests of some other group, with leaders that follow the directions of a church or secular leader. Sort of like the Catholic church in some times and places where authoritarian leaders have demanded its obedience. On paper, that church has always had similar structure, goals, leadership, principles, etc. but in reality it has taken on different qualities in response to circumstances and strengths and weaknesses of individuals.

Then I impose a local sort of diversity that just reflects the way individuals you encounter in a given city, county, court, etc. deal with their role in guild. Some are part of the regional 'machine'; some fight against that machine's interests; some are pursuing their own goals and just try to avoid constraints from superiors.

I think the way the wizard's guild is presented in Ardonirane is a good example of what I'm talking about. There are some background assumptions about Cidri wizarding culture, but really the local guild is its own thing with its own power centers in government, its own unusual relationships (to the Mechanician's guild - often an enemy in other times and places) and its own unusual problems (a recent leadership purge, powerful magicians who are not following the hierarchy, a crazy cult with a hold over some members, etc.). And the strengths and weaknesses of the guild in Ardonirane itself surely influence how local representatives of the guild work in the surrounding several hundred miles. But not so much if you head far enough East and make it into the Duchy of Dran.

[Shostak]

The whole idea of a Wizards' Guild stifles me. I prefer having competing magical societies that could be bound by religion, thaumatological interest, economic power, political influence, etc., with some much larger than others.

[hcobb]

Any starting environment will evolve into a Wizard's Guild that doesn't do assignations. Other forms will kill off a lot of wizards and other powerful people before they get to that state.

[larsdangly]

The concept of a professional guild makes perfect sense to me, given how medieval societies organized themselves as more, and more complex, skilled professions came into being. But I totally agree that such organizations would naturally exist in an environment where religious, political and personal motivations intrude on the culture of wizarding. That's the fun part about roleplaying games: you get to explore what these things mean to you through play.

[TippetsTX]

I agree with Lars on this. Any attempt to scale guilds or TBH, any setting element, to a global level is impossible on a world as massive and diverse as Cidri. And even if you don't use Cidri, I would never consider using an organization as connected as the Wizard's Guild for anything larger than a nation-state or empire.

[larsdangly]

Although, it would also be lots of fun to imagine a wizarding guild that somehow managed to unify its hierarchy globally, perhaps through some supernatural means of observing and influencing members. What would people do once caught in such an organization? How would other secular and religious powers relate to it? It would be like an illuminati story, if the illuminati were so powerful that they stepped out into public view.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Although, it would also be lots of fun to imagine a wizarding guild that somehow managed to unify its hierarchy globally, perhaps through some supernatural means of observing and influencing members. What would people do once caught in such an organization? How would other secular and religious powers relate to it? It would be like an illuminati story, if the illuminati were so powerful that they stepped out into public view.

I really need to update this sometime ...

[JohnPaulB]

Thank you all, so far.

I'm just trying to get a perspective of ITL p60 The Wizards' Guild

This is one of the oldest and most powerful organizations on Cidri. 99 percent of all wizards belong to the Guild – and the remainder once belonged and left for political reasons, or were apprentices of such an apostate.

So the general consensus so far seems to be that The Wizards’ Guild is not one unified Corporation with worldwide membership/power.

The size (and territory) of any particular Wizards’ Guild seems to be how much it wants to and has the power to extend into areas and how much latitude it gives its members to adhere to the WG Doctrines.

If there is not a One-World Wizards’s Guild, then there are many different WGs. The powerful ones might be nation-size and perhaps even fitting the borders of a nation. Perhaps a nation might have several state-sized WGs. There might be county-sized WG. There might even be a guild that only extends its power to just beyond the walls of the city.

And that does not include any magical societies that may or may not function like a WG.

So when a wizard says, “I’m a card-carrying Wizard’s Guild member.” The proper response from the Dran Wizard’s Guild secretary might be “Where is the Podunk Wizard Guild, how many chapters does it have or what is the size of your membership, what is the renown of your senior Guildmaster?”
And if it’s the same guild, but spread out over a wide area, I like hcobb’s comment about Furgis' chapter.

With a myriad of WGs, a city could have two Wizard Guilds living side by side with different ideologies. This might be like having two hospitals in the same city, or it could be like having mafia families vying for the same turf.


Anyway, when ITL says 99% of wizards belong to the Guild, its making a lot more sense to me now. That 99% is probably some scholar’s encyclopedia trying to make sense of all the Wizards’ Guilds and lumping everyone into the same pot; not 7500 different Wizards' Guilds hosting that 99%.

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So the next thing to figure out is how co-operative neighboring or far flung Wizards’ Guilds are. Some suggestions were made here already. Would it be like: "I have $250 in my Dran Wizards Guild account. I'm going to be a week in Kel, maybe I can transfer that to the Kel Wizards Guild? Or maybe the Guilds are affiliates and I can use my Dran Frequent Magic Miles to get some hotel time at their hall?"

I agree that the GM will ultimately determine what is right for him. I’m just getting a better grasp of the subject.