thoughts on Seraphim

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by Jason

I think this is both a practical and a philosophical issue: are vessels employed so angels can pass as human, or so angels can interact with the world as people at all? Wandering around in celestial form, not everyone can see you, and those who can see you would probably freak out. I could see a Seraph feeling comfortable in a vessel just because it communicates something even MORE Truthful to human beings than being seen in celestial form: "I'm a person, too" (working under the assumption that one can be a person without being a human).

Well, I think the extent to which angels are people is debatable, because "person" is a fuzzy-bordered concept that humans built up around humans. But yeah, obviously the utility of tricking people into thinking your human is mainly not to freak them out, just as more generally the utility of deceiving people in one way or another is to produce this or that reaction in them.

I imagine the Seraphic ideal would be to have a vessel with six eyes and to begin every conversation, not very effectively, with "be not afraid!" That they're not probably hints that baseline human vessels are easier to manufacture and so can be justified on double effect and lack of vanity. But maybe there are modifications to that baseline that most angels are issued but Seraphim balk at, like navels.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

I imagine the Seraphic ideal would be to have a vessel with six eyes and to begin every conversation, not very effectively, with "be not afraid!"

That would be awesome.

Now that you mention it, one Seraph PC I made (that I never got to play) was insistent upon having Numinous Corpus Eyes in part because it felt more truthful...

[Phoenix42]

I think a relevant question to ask in the above debate would be: What separates a Seraph of any Word from a servitor (or a Seraph) of Revelation?

I can't help but thinking that the things you describe @Matthias is more how a servitor of Revelation would see things, i.e. as deception covering up a secret truth. I think any seraph who is not borderline nuts has to admit that in the Material Realm, at least, things can be several things at the same time without being a lie. I.e. the colours of a butterfly aren't a lie, they are merely a depiction that others (i.e. birds) may easily misconceive. In that sense, they are like a vessel. It's the difference, in essence, between hiding a truth and telling a lie. A seraph may do the former but not the latter. The butterfly isn't lying, and neither, I might wager, is a celestial in a vessel, both are merely portraying something that the outside world perceives as something else. It's when the celestial says "hi, I'm Fred the janitor" that it becomes a lie. I'll grant that the nuances of that differentiation may be fraught with stomachache, of course. But any Seraph so hateful of the symphony is more likely to become Hell-bound by volition rather than by dissonance...

[Acolyte]

That's a good point, about Servitors of Revelation.

Here's another thought: it's clear that in IN there are a great many angels who never see (or almost never see) Corporeal duty. Obviously this includes many of the ancients on the Seraphim Council, but plenty of advisor-level Seraphim never leave Heaven. The ones picked by Archangels (or their lieutenants) for Corporeal duty might be the ones best able to get their snaky heads around the difference between lying and misleading without treading the road of dissonance. I imagine that each Archangel has certain tests for this (as well as for other qualities needed in a prospective favored Servitor). Any Seraph whose first mission ends in disaster because of a failure to appreciate that difference is reassigned to Heaven, where its talents are obviously better used.

[PenitentDemon]

thought id ressurect this thread rather then make a new one an odd question just thought of


If a seraphim, say a Redeemed balseraph is told by his superior, "you are no Longer X you are now Y" does that become symphonicly true?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by PenitentDemon

If a seraphim, say a Redeemed balseraph is told by his superior, "you are no Longer X you are now Y" does that become symphonicly true?

I guess it would depend what "X" and "Y" are. If the Seraph is being assigned to a new Role, already set up by a reliever and just waiting for someone to step into the designated vessel, then I'd assume it is indeed true. If the Seraph is told she is no longer a Seraph, but is now a Cherub, I imagine the Seraph would be very confused (or prepared to have her Forces torn apart and rebuilt...).

[PenitentDemon]

hmmmn was thinking either a reliever who just fledged, or a redeemed balseraph


Relievers often have very simple names,


Especialy if your laurence or dominic, you may not want a redeemed to hold onto a blatantly demonic name


What I meant by "symphonicly true" is "its not a lie to say "this is my name"

[Jason]

Oh yeah, I'd say that's definitely True, especially for a redemption. If a recently redeemed Seraph was born as a Balseraph in Hell with a name in Helltongue that means "He Who Deceives," he would pretty much HAVE to change it. (Plus, it's dissonant for angels to speak in Helltongue.)

[Archangel Beth]

Dissonant to learn Helltongue, and dissonant to lie in Helltongue -- but not, unless I have jumped timelines, dissonant for angels to speak the truth in Helltongue.