In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

[Azel]

I personally hate roll over for two reasons (even though I understand it statistically functions the same):

1) Annoying bookkeeping on character sheets. It is easier for me to add to skills/stats and then determine success, just like percentile dice d100. Rolling over requires flipping the spectrum to determine 0~100% and hold to it, which leads to...

2) People eventually opening up the upper limit. Suddenly it's not a 0~100% spectrum, but now with no upper limit it scales into the higher heavens. And then you get min/max nightmares like AD&D 3e and the like. People keep chasing the upper limit and there's no limit to reach, so eventually everything looks the same.

Mercifully, as IN currently is, all you have to do to stop that treadmill stupidity (yes, I really hate it that much) is remove Automatic Success rule where excess TN converts into a CD +mod.

I have to run so I don't have time to read in depth the alternate d666 system. Sounds intriguing, yet it will naturally bring up its own problems. But that's exciting, too. Test it out and let us know.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by Azel

The game was built upon the cosmic imbalance of starting humans being weaker than celestials. It is foundational to the very argument about why there was a fall in the first place. It's beyond canon, it's written into the very fabric of the game's conceit.

This. IN is gripping because the powerful are beholden to the weak (even demons: by defining themselves opposed God's plan, they must win over human souls to prove that their rebellion is correct). It isn't gripping because Seraph detectives make Holmes look like Lestrade, or because Calabim can kill you with their brains*, or because an average Vessel can suck up as much lethal damage as 5 or 6 humans. Those things are certainly cool and fun, but they aren't the focus of the game. If you want to play the game without the gripping human drama, focusing only on the supernatural elements, you're already playing a different game, one the rules poorly support. The problem, though, isn't the rules, it's that they are being pasted onto a game model they weren't intended support. Imagine trying to play a highbrow political drama with D&D characters--it's surely possible, but many of the rules would be useless and few of the rules would actually influence the game. You'd be better off with different rules.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Finally the fact remains. People want to play humans. They will take whatever mechanics are given to them. There is no reason to punish a player for wanting to play the party human. None. Thematically, all that is required is the understanding that PC Soldiers are that much better than rank-6 Servant Soldiers, let alone mundane humans - that a default PC human is, in fact, so hardcore and/or so skilled that they sent him instead of a celestial.
<snip>

Or if that's too big a stretch for you - rather than have to choose between playing a human and being mechanically capable of anything at all, people could stat a celestial and use its human Servant as their actual character in most scenes, switching to controlling the celestial where appropriate.

IN doesn't "punish" players for wanting to play humans, it simply isn't a game about playing humans. That's as ludicrous as suggesting that D&D 3e punished players for wanting to play blacksmiths (commoners) or merchants (experts), when the truth is that it simply wasn't a game about playing such banal characters in a fantasy world. IN is a game about playing in-the-trenches angels and demons, while providing rules for making NPCs that are Ethereals, mundane humans, Saints, Soldiers, Sorcerers, Remnants, Relievers, Wordbound celestials, Superiors, etc and so on. Various explanations across multiple books in the line deal with irregular PCs, mostly devoted to discussing the problems such PCs create. If you choose to ignore those warnings and go ahead with a non-celestial PC concept, that's on you, not IN.

From a player perspective, I'd rather work with a game when creating a PC, not twist its arm. From a GM perspective, I'd rather convince a player who expresses interest in a human PC that he'd have more fun working with the game, not fighting it, the same as with any RPG. The workaround of having a player who really wants to play a human create an angel PC with a human servant and play both is quite excellent. Another might be to play a celestial with Discord (or and unusually self-deluded Balseraph) who believes that he is a gifted human, or a Mercurian/Impudite who's been on Earth so long other celestials see him as having gone native. A celestial whose Ethereal Forces all came from a human soul might retain a lot of human personality. Backstory interventions could do all sorts of exciting things (a human soul in Heaven meditating in Eli's dusty cathedral could start to sing and roll a 111 and suddenly find himself to be a Mercurian of Creation...). There are plenty of inventive character concepts that don't rely on doing something with IN that that it isn't meant to do.

* River Tam is a Calabite!

[dataweaver]

Note that the core book provides rules for creating human PCs — as opposed to NPCs. And it doesn't even relegate said rules to an out-of-the-way place or present them as a rules variant: instead, mundane humans, Soldiers, and Undead are presented side by side with angels and demons as potential PCs. Heck, one of the character creation examples features a player creating an Undead character. That pretty much sinks the theory that you're not playing the game as intended if you choose to play a human.

Incidently, I find it interesting that you suggest playing a human-turned-celestial (using a backstory Intervention to sidestep the firmly established principle that humans never become celestials) as an alternative to "doing something that IN isn't meant to do".

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Note that the core book provides rules for creating human PCs — as opposed to NPCs. And it doesn't even relegate said rules to an out-of-the-way place or present them as a rules variant: instead, mundane humans and Soldiers are presented side by side with angels and demons as potential PCs. That pretty much sinks the theory that you're not playing the game as intended if you choose to play a human or Soldier.

However, the rules for creating celestials are far more extensive than those for creating mortal characters. So while there's nothing wrong or illegal in playing humans, it's also clear where the spotlight was placed and the baseline set.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

IN doesn't "punish" players for wanting to play humans, it simply isn't a game about playing humans. That's as ludicrous as suggesting that D&D 3e punished players for wanting to play blacksmiths (commoners) or merchants (experts), when the truth is that it simply wasn't a game about playing such banal characters in a fantasy world.

Quoted for truth.

[dataweaver]

But Acolyte's point wasn't that Celestials get the spotlight; his point was that you shouldn't play humans. If he's right, then a hypothetical IN2e should remove humans from the core book's character creation section, and relegate it to a supplement. If he's wrong, then I'd rather see The human/celestial gap downplayed to make humans more viable PC material.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

But Acolyte's point wasn't that Celestials get the spotlight; his point was that you shouldn't play humans.

Yes and no. His point was that the game isn't designed with human PCs in mind. They're an allowable option, but one that cuts across the grain of the presumed PC experience. That's why I highlighted the D&D quote.

As far as excluding them -- no. A GM still needs to create NPCs, after all; I find the GM usually uses the character creation section more than any one player.

EDIT: I'll add that this is merely my opinion. Human characters clearly can be played in IN and have been played in IN. But it's a little like playing a mundane in Vampire: The Masquerade; doable but not optimal, by design.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

IN doesn't "punish" players for wanting to play humans, it simply isn't a game about playing humans. That's as ludicrous as suggesting that D&D 3e punished players for wanting to play blacksmiths (Craft-abusing Wizards / 3.Tome Fighters) or merchants (Craft-abusing Wizards / Bard Diplomancers), when the truth is that it simply wasn't a game about playing such banal characters in a fantasy world.

Fixed that for you. D&D is a terrible, terrible example for "this game is not about that concept" arguments because it has so little wedding of fluff to mechanics. Your example would be valid if there were no in-character problems brought up with claiming that for all background purposes, your character is a human, has been a human all their life, and has only recently discovered the supernatural... and statting them as a 9-Force combat wombat Calabite, complete with Resonance, without having to pull even the vaguest fluff shenanigans to justify that.

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

However, the rules for creating celestials are far more extensive than those for creating mortal characters. So while there's nothing wrong or illegal in playing humans, it's also clear where the spotlight was placed and the baseline set.

They dropped the ball on this big time for core. Human PCs, by the rules, can purchase rank 6 Servants strictly superior in every way to themselves.

I will say - actual experience has yet to show an intolerable power disparity between 7-Force Soldiers/Mummies and 9-Force celestial PCs, assuming the same XP growth schedule. I just don't feel there's a case to deliberately preserve any power disparity among player characters, because that just makes it harder to ensure people get their time in the spotlight.

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

As far as excluding them -- no. A GM still needs to create NPCs, after all; I find the GM usually uses the character creation section more than any one player.

You could still have a "NPC ONLY" flag, or fail to mention a "INTENDED AS ENTIRELY VIABLE AND IN NO WAY COMPLETELY GIMPED PC" flag. There was no pretence in the first edition that relievers or demonlings could be viable characters, but they still got statting rules.

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

EDIT: I'll add that this is merely my opinion. Human characters clearly can be played in IN and have been played in IN. But it's a little like playing a mundane in Vampire: The Masquerade; doable but not optimal, by design.

Bad example is bad - have you seen what Sorcerers or Psychics can pull in Old WoD? The local MET GM has had to rewrite a number of rules to counter how terrifyingly broken human NPCs are in a Vampire game.

Also, you're citing White Wolf as an example of intentional design. Stop it.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Yes and no. His point was that the game isn't designed with human PCs in mind. They're an allowable option, but one that cuts across the grain of the presumed PC experience. That's why I highlighted the D&D quote.

That's not the tone I got from his final paragraph, where he seemed to be saying that if you want the human perspective in a PC, you should feel free to bend, spindle and mutilate the game as much as you like in order to make a celestial who has a human mindset, just so long as you don't commit the unspeakable heresy of playing an actual human.

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

As far as excluding them -- no. A GM still needs to create NPCs, after all; I find the GM usually uses the character creation section more than any one player.

True, which is why I pointed out that one of the examples of character creation has a player creating a human (albeit an undead one). As well, (and I could be wrong about this; I'm going by memory) the core book also has Relievers and Imps in it, but doesn't provide character creation rules for them; they're clearly meant to be NPCs.

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

EDIT: I'll add that this is merely my opinion. Human characters clearly can be played in IN and have been played in IN. But it's a little like playing a mundane in Vampire: The Masquerade; doable but not optimal, by design.

And IMHO, it's a flawed design that subsequent supplements have done their utmost to get around. I hated it in VtM too, and was much relieved when the new World of Darkness toned down the power gap between human and supernatural protagonists. Human characters have the deck stacked against them enough already just in terms of the Resonances and Resources that celestials have that humans lack, not to mention numerous innate abilities such as the celestial form, the revolving door of death, and access to Tethers; restricting them so that they have incompetent characteristic levels on top of that is just adding insult to injury.

There's a lot that can be done to beef up humans that would still leave them as "second-class citizens" in terms of where the spotlight falls; right now, they're closer to the level of "slave" than even "unpopular minority".

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

That's not the tone I got from his final paragraph, where he seemed to be saying that if you want the human perspective in a PC, you should feel free to bend, spindle and mutilate the game as much as you like in order to make a celestial who has a human mindset, just so long as you don't commit the unspeakable heresy of playing an actual human.

Can I sig that?

Originally Posted by dataweaver

True, which is why I pointed out that one of the examples of character creation has a player creating a human (albeit an undead one).

The undead are fairly lacking in significant advantages over humans in their day to day gaming.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

And IMHO, it's a flawed design that subsequent supplements have done their utmost to get around. I hated it in VtM too, and was much relieved when the new World of Darkness toned down the power gap between human and supernatural protagonists. Human characters have the deck stacked against them enough already just in terms of the Resonances and Resources that celestials have that humans lack, not to mention numerous innate abilities such as the celestial form, the revolving door of death, and access to Tethers; restricting them so that they have incompetent characteristic levels on top of that is just adding insult to injury.

QFT, humans simply have too much resonance with, er, other humans to be relegated to the "don't bother playing" category. Though, Laws of the Hunt - where the "broken supernatural powers only available to ordinary humanity" largely is sourced from - was late in the production cycle, so White Wolf may have already begun to get over themselves.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

There's a lot that can be done to beef up humans that would still leave them as "second-class citizens" in terms of where the spotlight falls; right now, they're closer to the level of "slave" than even "unpopular minority".

Even straight up bringing human PCs to 9 Forces, with 36 XP, and no strict need to buy Vessels or Roles, leaves them as second class citizens - they still have no Resonance, no Cel Form, only one life, no Tether hopping, no free 5-point attunement, and no free Rites.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Can I sig that?

Sure.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

QFT, humans simply have too much resonance with, er, other humans to be relegated to the "don't bother playing" category. Though, Laws of the Hunt - where the "broken supernatural powers only available to ordinary humanity" largely is sourced from - was late in the production cycle, so White Wolf may have already begun to get over themselves.

Oh, they have. With the exception of two game lines that are blatantly and unapologetically rooted in the idea that the supers in the setting leave ordinary mortals in the dust (i.e., Exalted and Scion), most of their games these days assume that the challenges that the protagonists face will be things that a group of mortals has at least a fighting chance against — as far as starting characters go, at least.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Even straight up bringing human PCs to 9 Forces, with 36 XP, and no strict need to buy Vessels or Roles, leaves them as second class citizens - they still have no Resonance, no Cel Form, only one life, no Tether hopping, no free 5-point attunement, and no free Rites.

Heck, you need to go with a Saint before you start getting a human who isn't completely outclassed when dealing with celestials.