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Old 01-13-2018, 03:31 PM   #31
wolf90
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Just stepping in here to remind everyone to keep things polite. Overall this discussion has been; just a friendly reminder.

tbeard1999 is correct in that modding war-games and developing house rules is a time honored activity. He is sharing one of his with us, and this is a Good Thing.

As others have pointed out, Ogre and G.E.V. are A) games, not exact simulations of armored conflict, and B) pretty well balanced as games, as evidenced by their longevity. These are also Good Things.

The Hold Fire mechanic makes this "not-Ogre", but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. It is an interesting concept. Ideally these discussions can refine the idea (or illuminate possible flaws that might be corrected) for a possible article for Ogrezine! (Shameless plug . . .)

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Old 01-13-2018, 03:36 PM   #32
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Please clarify; this sentence doesn't make any sense to me.
Ogre is also a poor simulation of ancient warfare. Arguably an even worse one than chess is.

Ogre isn't a simulation of anything historical at all, it's a sf-skinned asymmetrical board game.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2018 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:00 PM   #33
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Ogre is also a poor simulation of ancient warfare. Arguably an even worse one than chess is.

Ogre isn't a simulation of anything historical at all, it's a sf-skinned asymmetrical board game.
When did I say Ogre is a simulation of ancient warfare?
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:01 PM   #34
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
Just stepping in here to remind everyone to keep things polite. Overall this discussion has been; just a friendly reminder.

tbeard1999 is correct in that modding war-games and developing house rules is a time honored activity. He is sharing one of his with us, and this is a Good Thing.

As others have pointed out, Ogre and G.E.V. are A) games, not exact simulations of armored conflict, and B) pretty well balanced as games, as evidenced by their longevity. These are also Good Things.

The Hold Fire mechanic makes this "not-Ogre", but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. It is an interesting concept. Ideally these discussions can refine the idea (or illuminate possible flaws that might be corrected) for a possible article for Ogrezine! (Shameless plug . . .)

D.
What is this Ogrezine of which you speak?

And at least I didn’t add submarines and flying fortresses (see Greg Costikyan’s mods in TSG reprinted in The Ogre Book).

Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:11 PM   #35
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I can see no plausible Real World reason that a stationary AFV can't engage a detected enemy AFV when that enemy AFV enters weapon range. Assuming of course, that the stationary AFV isn't shooting at something else or disabled.
Okay, I will try again.

First, I agree. You-go-I-go is often a source of artifacts in tactical and operational scale simulations. If you were interested in trying to make Ogre more simulation-like then the kinds of mechanics you are talking about are one way to do it.

However, there is a plausible reason an AFV can't engage an enemy in its weapon range. Why can't indirect elements engage all targets in range today?

Because just because a target you can't see is in range doesn't mean you have gun data for it.

But, you say, Ogre assumes instantaneous, 100% reliable battlefield intelligence. Yes, but this conceit is actually just as unrealistic as the the GEV getting to shoot and move out of range without risk of return fire.

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Old 01-13-2018, 04:16 PM   #36
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
When did I say Ogre is a simulation of ancient warfare?
My point is that like chess, Ogre is a board game that isn't especially representative of anything historical. It mainly is an asymmetrical zero-sum game with perfect information, that happens to have an sf-theme about giant robot tanks. It has just a little more to do with contemporary armored warfare than Ticket To Ride actually simulates a race across country on 19th century rail.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2018 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:52 PM   #37
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Okay, I will try again.

First, I agree. You-go-I-go is often a source of artifacts in tactical and operational scale simulations. If you were interested in trying to make Ogre more simulation-like then the kinds of mechanics you are talking about are one way to do it.

However, there is a plausible reason an AFV can't engage an enemy in its weapon range. Why can't indirect elements engage all targets in range today?
The problem is that you can’t limit such assumptions (which I don’t agree with, but for purposes of discussion we’ll assume I do) to the situations I described. If the environment you postulate existed, then units should fire in some random order. Tha would slow the game to a crawl.

Why is it so important to rationalize an issue that has been understood to be a flaw in ugo/igo games since Panzerblitz? What’s so hard about admitting what is self evident to me - a stock ugo/igo system will always allow moving units to gain an unrealistic advantage? The sole exception is if moving units are not allowed to fire. That situation is only applicable to WW2.

GEV is not some transcendent thing that is somehow immune to the rules that apply to every other game with similar systems.

It is, in all likelihood, the igo/ugo game that suffers the least from it. But it still gives attacking units an unreasonable advantage that is implausible given what we know about modern AFV combat and the revealed nature of the Ogre universe.

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But, you say, Ogre assumes instantaneous, 100% reliable battlefield intelligence.
Well, I infer it from the game itself. Most scenarios feature complete knowledge of the battlefield and there are no mechanisms for spotting hidden units or somesuch. The closest thing I am aware of was the breakthrough scenario (IIRC) in GEV that allowed the defender to cover up his units. Even then, you there were enemy units present; you just didn’t know exactly what they were. (And that, by the way, would argue against attacking GEVs being able to ambush defending tanks that are waiting for them. Obviously the defending units have more information than the attackers).

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Yes, but this conceit is actually just as unrealistic as the the GEV getting to shoot and move out of range without risk of return fire.
I really don’t think it is. In fact, we’re fast reaching the point now in the Real World. Tiny tactical drones with high resolution cameras and the military version of Google Earth have made tactical surprise a much rarer occurrence - at least as long as the batteries last. I’m working up a design called FFT 2050 - a mid 21st century Fistful of TOWs variant. No cybertanks, so it doesn’t really compete with Ogre. As I project current trends, the “fog of war” is quickly evaporating. Indeed, I’m having to rig the analysis to keep AFVs viable. Top-attack, fire and forget brilliant missiles are gonna be rough on tanks. I also have to rig the analysis to allow GEVs, but the Rule of Cool applies there.

But if I’m wrong, that doesn’t make the “attacker ambush” tactic more realistic. If there is a significant fog of war, the defender invariably has more information than the attacker. His units are hidden and in the best terrain. That argues against “attacker ambush” tactics.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
My point is that like chess, Ogre is a board game that isn't especially representative of anything historical. It mainly is an asymmetrical zero-sum game with perfect information, that happens to have an sf-theme about giant robot tanks. It has just a little more to do with contemporary armored warfare than Ticket To Ride actually simulates a race across country on 19th century rail.
<shrug> You seem to be trying to have it both ways. If it’s “only a game” then it isn’t necessary to expend effort rationalizing the rules.

And understand, I think “it’s an abstraction that occasionally allows aberrant results and I’m okay with it” is a perfectly reasonable response.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-13-2018 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:18 PM   #39
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
The problem is that you can’t limit such assumptions (which I don’t agree with, but for purposes of discussion we’ll assume I do) to the situations I described. If the environment you postulate existed, then units should fire in some random order. Tha would slow the game to a crawl.
Realistic simulation is always difficult to make gameable.

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Why is it so important to rationalize an issue that has been understood to be a flaw in ugo/igo games since Panzerblitz?
I'm not. I understand the issue.

My only point is that your arguments that return fire should be assumed to be accurate and instantaneous is the wrong argument. Indirect fires aren't either of these things.

Quote:
What’s so hard about admitting what is self evident to me - a stock ugo/igo system will always allow moving units to gain an unrealistic advantage?
No difficulty, it is true. However it isn't an unfair advantage, both sides are able to make use of it.

Quote:
GEV is not some transcendent thing that is somehow immune to the rules that apply to every other game with similar systems.
No game is ordinaryly subject to the rules of other games. I also can't win GEV by buying development cards, or reaching level 10 by killing a monster, or by putting your king in check, or with a royal flush.

Quote:
But it still gives attacking units an unreasonable advantage that is implausible given what we know about modern AFV combat and the revealed nature of the Ogre universe.
No more implausible than then way that you somehow win a rail race by matching cards and connecting two pairs of cities on opposite sides of the country.

Quote:
Well not me. I infer it from the game itself. Most scenarios feature complete knowledge of the battlefield and there are no mechanisms for spotting hidden units or somesuch. The closest thing I am aware of was the breakthrough scenario (IIRC) in GEV that allowed the defender to cover up his units. Even then, you there were enemy units present; you just didn’t know exactly what they were. (And that, by the way, would argue against attacking GEVs being able to ambush defending tanks that are waiting for them. Obviously the defending units have more information than the attackers).
Yes, I am aware of what the game's fluff says to explain why it is a perfect information game.

Quote:
I really don’t think it is. In fact, we’re fast reaching the point now in the Real World. Tiny tactical drones with high resolution cameras and the military version of Google Earth have made tactical surprise a much rarer occurrence - at least as long as the batteries last. I’m working up a design called FFT 2050 - a mid 21st century Fistful of TOWs variant. No cybertanks, so it doesn’t really compete with Ogre. As I project current trends, the “fog of war” is quickly evaporating. Indeed, I’m having to rig the analysis to keep AFVs viable. Top-attack, fire and forget brilliant missiles are gonna be rough on tanks. I also have to rig the analysis to allow GEVs, but the Rule of Cool applies there.
I have fought in this battlespace. None of that tech works as well as you think it does. We often didn't know where the enemy was, right now. Really the only times we did was when we were engaged. Rarely, sometimes we knew where they were several minutes ago.

Quote:
But if I’m wrong, that doesn’t make the “attacker ambush” tactic more realistic. If there is a significant fog of war, the defender invariably has more information than the attacker. His units are hidden and in the best terrain. That argues against “attacker ambush” tactics.
Yeah that's not what I am saying. All I am saying is that indirect fire isn't ever as accurate or responsive as direct fire. Improvements that make it more so are also going to benefit direct fire too.

Your MTB versus helicopter expirements probably didn't bother to try to shoot at helicopters as far away as a single Ogre hex, and certainly not with their main gun. Nobody has tried to figure out how to shoot distant helicopters with howitzers or mortars either. There is a reason for this.

Anyway this seems to be going nowhere, enjoy your house rule.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-13-2018 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

This is a concept that pops up on this board every few years. I started an iteration myself when I felt grumpy over a MSL not getting first shot on something with half its range. But it would make Ogre a very different game.
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