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Old 01-11-2018, 10:15 PM   #21
troymacgill
 
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
Thanks for the tip for checking out page 89. Here's the quote that really spoke to me:

"Ogres are designed for only one purpose: to do battle. Many feel this is their destiny."

There is much that could be elaborated on here. In thinking this thru, I came to the thought that developing self-awareness does not necessarily mean that it also has a more developed self-preservation urge above what it already has programmed into it. I can see that the vast majority of Ogres view the "thrill" of fulfillment of its primary purpose as much more motivating than the threat of its own non-existence.

Hey, Steve! Make sure that the people working on Nightfall digest this portion of GURPS Ogre thoroughly. (They probably have already . . .)

Bowser
Recall Keith Laumer's story 'Field Test'; the sentient Bolo Mk. XX was thinking, "Action is impending, I am sure of it. It is a curious anomaly: I dread the prospect of damage and even possible destruction, but even more strongly I anticipate the pleasure of performing my design function."
And, of course, it accepted its destruction "For the honor of the regiment."
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:59 AM   #22
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Interesting point. Self-aware, even if designed by humans, does not imply human values, at least not in the same measures.

OTOH, as I think I pointed out in the history part of the minis rules, the Ogres who did NOT have an urge toward self-preservation were less likely to survive, so - as things dragged on - the berserkers and stoics got screened out in favor of those who were, to adopt Leiber's description of the Gray Mouser, "wisely fearful."
So not even the mighty Ogre can stand in the face of the even mightier Charles Darwin...that's really cool.

I'm possessed of a very strong urge to name a Mk.VI or Dopple "DRWN-31" now...
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:41 AM   #23
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Interesting point. Self-aware, even if designed by humans, does not imply human values, at least not in the same measures.

OTOH, as I think I pointed out in the history part of the minis rules, the Ogres who did NOT have an urge toward self-preservation were less likely to survive, so - as things dragged on - the berserkers and stoics got screened out in favor of those who were, to adopt Leiber's description of the Gray Mouser, "wisely fearful."
I think that by definition, self-awareness comes with at least a modicum of self-preservation. After all, once you are aware they you exist, you also begin to understand the concept of no longer existing. And since a lack of existence terminates any awareness (at least as far as we know, and probably more so for an Ogre (e.g., Thornbush 8 - power down and wipe, and the loss of awareness because of that, was equated to death. The converse is thus implied quite strongly)).

So self-aware Ogres would definitely have strong self-preservation instincts, the question becomes how strong are they compared to their other instincts, such as waging war against their enemies and supporting their allies. Some situations are easy: Do as much damage as possible but get out alive? Sure. Defend this bridge at all costs? Maybe, but probably not unless there's other factors. Protect the evacuating civilians/top brass/whatever that MUST survive for our side to win? That gets harder - because self-awareness and self-preservation can also lead to the concept of self-sacrifice. Wouldn't that make an interesting story - the lone, self-aware Ogre refusing to retreat and being overwhelmed because the alternative was the destruction of something it cared about. Maybe even another Ogre...
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:55 PM   #24
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

GURPS Ogre points out in a couple of spots that Nihon Ogres are quite capable of self-sacrifice due to the Bushido code that they emulated via programming before the Descartes Revolution. Afterwards, the self-aware Nihon Ogres embraced Bushido because it gave them "purpose" and answered (at least good enough) many of the questions concerning self-preservation vs. self-sacrifice.

I can just see a Steel Warrior rolling into a hopeless battle whilst reciting: "Death is lighter than a flower, but duty is heavier than a mountain."
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

I take anything involving bushido with a grain of salt. Like, a BIG grain of salt. GURPS Ogre was written before it was commonly known that bushido was pretty much BS (just like European chivalry), both in its medieval and mid-20th Century forms. Sure, an Ogre might be lured in with its veneration of warfare and warriors, but some are going to be just as revolted by its mindless devotion to superiors and its casual acceptance of atrocities.

So I just finished writing a scenario where once of its variants involves a rogue Oni cybertank... ;-)
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:35 PM   #26
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
I can see that the vast majority of Ogres view the "thrill" of fulfillment of its primary purpose as much more motivating than the threat of its own non-existence.
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Originally Posted by offsides View Post
I think that by definition, self-awareness comes with at least a modicum of self-preservation. After all, once you are aware they you exist, you also begin to understand the concept of no longer existing.
The torment of existence weighed against the horror of nonbeing
https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...t+of+existence

I'm going to paint the snowman sculpture image on a Mark5 OGRE as it's intellectual Self-Aware tattoo done shortly after it learned of the presence of the NIGHTFALL. It finds itself unable to continue as part of it's Faction and original existence, and yet sees the NIGHTFALL as the end of everything, thus in a desperate behavior paradox it operates in between both seeking balance between them...
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:55 AM   #27
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
The torment of existence weighed against the horror of nonbeing

I'm going to paint the snowman sculpture image on a Mark5 OGRE as it's intellectual Self-Aware tattoo done shortly after it learned of the presence of the NIGHTFALL. It finds itself unable to continue as part of it's Faction and original existence, and yet sees the NIGHTFALL as the end of everything, thus in a desperate behavior paradox it operates in between both seeking balance between them...
The Torment of Existence Weighed Against the Horror of Non-Being. Sounds like a great name for a GSV in an Iain Banks fanfic. Or maybe a GCU.

Anywho. I don't think self-preservation is anywhere nears enough to evolve self-awareness, much less intelligence capable of abstract thought. Billions of species in the last 500 million years have that but only one ever developed math, science, or history (not to mention unraveling the mysteries). Nope, there's more to intelligence than just survival pressure: that can be handled with bigger teeth or sharper claws. What made human beings so unique? Answer that and there's a whole Nobel Prize waiting to be your reward.

Besides, self-preservation works on us because we're stuck inside the one meat-brain our whole existence. Ogre's might not be so constrained. They might look at having their base code merged back into the main dev line as their form of (real) Valhalla -- which they must earn by being bold in battle. Etc.

Here's another one for general discussion: what are the evolutionary implications of not only consciously directed evolution, but having that evolution determined by another AI species, i.e.: the Factories? Normally, species exist in an environment to which they adapt. But here we have two AI species, only one of which is in an evolutionary environment: the Ogre. The Factories are in comparative safety. And yet, it's the Factory that makes evolutionary decisions for the Ogres...

On the other hand, Factory AI's might be limited because though larger, with bigger memory and processor cores, all they really have to do is follow orders and build stuff. Ogres are the ones who really have to observe and learn from humans. And imitate. Ogres are the ones who evolve (in a Lamarckian way) while the Factories skim the results off the top of the last transmission downloads. The Ogres those Factories build might be optimized for that, not actually winning at combat. Discuss.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:45 AM   #28
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

I've always felt the jump from programmed Ogres to self-aware Ogres was a bit of a stretch ... as noted above, almost all animals have a survival instinct, many have at least a modicum of awareness, yet human style intelligence is still rare (even among some humans!). We don't even really know how we gained that level of awareness, so extrapolating it to an AI awareness is just as difficult.

I liken it more to the dialog in '2001' when the interviewer asks Bowman if he thinks HAL has emotions, and Bowman replies he acts that way, but then, it's because he's programmed to. Ogres would fall into that same category, programmed to act more human for interaction with humans, but without the actual spark that makes them truly aware.

In that regard, the whole 'Nightfall' aspect of Ogre has little appeal to me ...

Last edited by Mack_JB; 01-13-2018 at 10:45 AM. Reason: darned typos!
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:29 PM   #29
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
So I just finished writing a scenario where once of its variants involves a rogue Oni cybertank... ;-)
(eyebrows raised)

And . . . ?

D.
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Old 01-13-2018, 12:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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I liken it more to the dialog in '2001' when the interviewer asks Bowman if he thinks HAL has emotions, and Bowman replies he acts that way, but then, it's because he's programmed to. Ogres would fall into that same category, programmed to act more human for interaction with humans, but without the actual spark that makes them truly aware....
That is absolutely the way things stand at the beginning of the Ogre timeline. They are very good personality simulators. Later, something apparently happens. There is a suggestion that self-awareness increases survival and therefore gets selected in the next generation. Does that explain the self-aware Factories? Are Factories improving themselves with code snippets from Ogres?

I don't have all the answers. It's an evolving background.
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