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Old 01-09-2018, 09:51 PM   #11
wolf90
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
. . .but if not there's a whole raft of 'zine fiction just waiting to be brought to life there.
PLEASE jump aboard this train of thought!

<grin>

D.
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:24 AM   #12
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Would luv to see some non-OGRE units become part of the NIGHTFALL, especially some Infantry units. Now colored a shadow black with white NIGHTFALL Iconography adorning their Battlesuits...oh the subversion...oh the scenarios. :)
Would there be special retaliation and containment forces created by both factions to counter the growing NIGHTFALL? What would they be, what would they look like?

Sometimes it's best to not show the whole monster, but only it's shadow. I hope NIGHTFALL gives us some answers without taking too much of the mystery of it's origins away.

Speaking of Vatican Guard (Matthew 5:5...and the meek shall inherit the earth):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...7664516616338/

Speaking of NIGHTFALL...[D6] only available in the imagination:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...7685954428302/
They have the black one in the PC Game on STEAM in the NIGHTFALL Campaign, which inspired the white one. Which would become the crowning jewels of the OGRE Dice SJGs made available. ;)
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Old 01-10-2018, 09:02 AM   #13
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

I think GURPS Ogre does a decent job of explaining the mechanics of Ogre loyalty. Non-sentient Ogres have the "Programmable Duty" disadvantage, reflecting that they are just very clever drones. It also has a section trying to explain the psychology of sentient Ogres. It's all in Chapter 6, with page 89 being of particular interest. It's really worth a read-through on its own, and I won't copy-paste it all, but one line stands out to me:

"[Sentient Ogres] were capable of questioning orders, but there was little point; if they disobeyed orders, they would be hunted by both sides - and without logistical support, a rogue Ogre would eventually suffer a terminal breakdown." This is the same as in human soldiers, and militaries are not shy about using it to enforce discipline. Just as an example, it's why the US Army court-martialed SGT Bergdahl. It wasn't so much to punish him directly as to set an example: abandon your post and you will be in trouble, no matter what the circumstances. The same would very much be used against sentient Ogres, with the object lesson there being Thornbush 8, the first rogue Ogre. It was hunted down and destroyed.
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Greg Egan's "Quarantine" has some fascinating meditations on externally-implanted loyalty mind-mods and their possible failure modes. Definite applications to operational security in sentient Ogres.

Spoiler [ROT-13]: Lbh pna nyjnlf ghaary lbhe jnl bhg sebz haqre n yblnygl pbzchyfvba ol pbaivapvat lbhefrys gung lbh naq lbhe pb-pbafcvengbef ner yblny gb gur "erny" pber bs jungrire tebhc/vafgvghgvba/pbaprcg lbh'er orra pbzcryyrq gb or yblny gb, naq lbhe bccerffbef ner npghnyyl genvgbef gb gur pnhfr gurl guvax gurl'ir punvarq lbh gb.
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Old 01-10-2018, 04:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Wow, all these deep thoughts...

And here I thought that Ogre simply liked the purple and yellow paint scheme.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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After becoming self-aware, I would think that their logic (w/o emotion), based on whatever data they have access to, would lead them to believe that they would be better off ruling us rather than protecting us.
That's not an either/or choice. They could be protecting us by ruling us.

Quote:
But if Ogre loyalty is hardwired into them (and I don't have a big problem with that), then how does something like Nightfall happen?
Tyranny has often ended badly with people as tyrants. Why would an artificial intelligence escape that end?
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:22 PM   #17
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
It's all in Chapter 6, with page 89 being of particular interest. It's really worth a read-through on its own, and I won't copy-paste it all,
...good call...heh ;)
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:46 AM   #18
TheAmishStig
 
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

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Originally Posted by CON_Troll View Post
Wow, all these deep thoughts...

And here I thought that Ogre simply liked the purple and yellow paint scheme.
That idea does have at least some merit....I dunno about you, but I if I was holding a paint sprayer I wouldn't go within 7.5km of an Ogre that didn't want to be the color in the gun...
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I think GURPS Ogre does a decent job of explaining the mechanics of Ogre loyalty. Non-sentient Ogres have the "Programmable Duty" disadvantage, reflecting that they are just very clever drones. It also has a section trying to explain the psychology of sentient Ogres. It's all in Chapter 6, with page 89 being of particular interest. It's really worth a read-through on its own, and I won't copy-paste it all, but one line stands out to me:

"[Sentient Ogres] were capable of questioning orders, but there was little point; if they disobeyed orders, they would be hunted by both sides - and without logistical support, a rogue Ogre would eventually suffer a terminal breakdown." This is the same as in human soldiers, and militaries are not shy about using it to enforce discipline. Just as an example, it's why the US Army court-martialed SGT Bergdahl. It wasn't so much to punish him directly as to set an example: abandon your post and you will be in trouble, no matter what the circumstances. The same would very much be used against sentient Ogres, with the object lesson there being Thornbush 8, the first rogue Ogre. It was hunted down and destroyed.
Thanks for the tip for checking out page 89. Here's the quote that really spoke to me:

"Ogres are designed for only one purpose: to do battle. Many feel this is their destiny."

There is much that could be elaborated on here. In thinking this thru, I came to the thought that developing self-awareness does not necessarily mean that it also has a more developed self-preservation urge above what it already has programmed into it. I can see that the vast majority of Ogres view the "thrill" of fulfillment of its primary purpose as much more motivating than the threat of its own non-existence.

Hey, Steve! Make sure that the people working on Nightfall digest this portion of GURPS Ogre thoroughly. (They probably have already . . .)

Bowser
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:38 PM   #20
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty

Interesting point. Self-aware, even if designed by humans, does not imply human values, at least not in the same measures.

OTOH, as I think I pointed out in the history part of the minis rules, the Ogres who did NOT have an urge toward self-preservation were less likely to survive, so - as things dragged on - the berserkers and stoics got screened out in favor of those who were, to adopt Leiber's description of the Gray Mouser, "wisely fearful."
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