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Old 02-07-2017, 07:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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Military prisoners are not service members for the duration of their sentence -- they are prisoners. They don't have rank, receive no pay or benefits, and (inter alia) don't wear any military insignia. Any sentence served is in addition to their contracted enlistment. If the offense is serious enough to warrant incarceration at Fort Leavenworth it probably includes a dishonorable discharge, however, effective immediately upon release.
They seem to be ranked as E-1, albeit without pay and allowances. Most importantly, they can be charged with insubordination to the 31E NCOs in the USDB.

After the sentence is up, dishonourable discharge will generally kick in, yes.

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CID is the Criminal Investigation Division -- think detectives. Once they present their evidence at trial, they are out of the picture. There is an entire MOS within the Military Police trained for prison work, as well as POW and displaced civilian operations in wartime. They would be the ones transporting any military prisoners.
Are you sure that 31Es are the ones who transport lone witnesses or defendants (who happen to be soldiers convicted by court martial) to trial or the custody of another authority? The job is generally performed by 1811 Criminal Investigators in civilian federal agencies, who very much are detectives. They may have uniformed assistance, but there is generally a suit-wearing Special Agent (and partner, often) who is responsible for the prisoner.

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It is almost certainly logistically simpler for the Disciplinary Barracks to arrange a secure interview room in their own facility and have DHS (or whoever) come to visit the prisoner there, than to transport him somewhere else. (Of course, if the investigation requires the fixed Alien Mind Reading Squids facility in Area 51, that would change things.)
Well... no AMRS facility, but the DHS would really prefer to be able to perform some medical checks which they don't want to discuss with the DOD more than necessary.*

And given that the PCs are being sent for specifically because an operation where the DOD took the lead fell apart, apparently due to security breaches, the DHS has a pretty big stick to beat their counterparts in the DOD with for the moment. Having a US Army Special Forces detachment go AWOL in Mexico is pretty embarrassing for the military, after all, especially as it seems to have been a direct act of mutiny led by a full-bird Colonel.

*The DOD has sent personnel to the joint task force responsible for dealing with the fall-out of Project Jade Serenity and may thus be considered to have a pretty good idea of what is going on, but the people who are acting as handlers to the PCs seem to distrust the US Army and the Department of Defense in an almost pathological fashion.

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The psych wards in military hospitals are not set up for long term care. As far as I know, a patient declared permanently incompetent would receive a psych discharge and be turned over to whatever mental hospital is handy. Someone who poses a national security risk -- given what he knew before he cracked -- might be sent to St. Elizabeth's for special safekeeping.
That's just what I assumed. Pvt. Sherilyn Bell was indeed sent to a (fictional) federal satellite facility of St. Elizabeths which is still operating in the campaign world.

Most of the wings of our fictional Manhanock Asylum for the Criminally Insane are empty, but there are still a few inmates being treated there. Sadly, a case might be made that effective treatment is secondary to considerations of isolating individuals with severe mental disorders who formerly had Top Secret or even Top Secret - SCI clearance.

Manhanock was co-located with a military facility, including some biological research laboratories, observation towers, bunkers and a Coast Guard dock and refueling post, from WWII. The research labs were mothballed around 2000 and the facility remained inactive DOD property until the creation of the Department of Homeland Security some three years later, at which time the abandoned facility was transfered to the DHS along with other Coast Guard facilities.

From what Dr. Michael Anderson (PC) knows, it seems that when the MK-Ultra experiments became public in 1977, the DOD tightened security around their own similar experiments, but did not entirely abandon programs designed to develop nootropic drugs yielding various cognative and sensory enhancements. Manhanock was the center for such research from 1978-1998.

Pvt. Sherilyn Bell, while catatonic at the time which her trial was set and apparently quite insane even now, 17 years later, possesses knowledge of the TS-SCI Project Jade Serenity, drug trials on highly motivated and physically healthy US Army volunteers under realistic military training conditions, which grew out of the programs in Manhanock. This knowledge unfortunately includes knowledge of criminal acts committed by her superiors, only some of whom have been punished administratively and none of whom have been indicted.

Even if most of them have resigned their commissions, disappeared into obscurity and/or apparently left the country, disclosure of some of what Pvt. Bell knows to anyone who would be considered a credible source by the media would be extremely embarrassing.

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Murder and manslaughter are punishable "as a court martial may direct," up to and including death or life in prison for premeditated murder or murder in commission of some other major crime (rape, etc.). If premeditation can't be proved, the prosecutor will probably try for a manslaughter conviction.
I determined that a similar crime resulted in 30 years imprisonment for a real-world service member and decided to go with that for (former) SFC Mackenzie Chase Taylor.
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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Doubtful that the Military would turn said person over into the care of only the DHS or even the US Marshals.
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DoD is likely to retain custody at all times, I think, for one thing the prisoner is still a serviceman and they are responsible for his welfare. I would imagine that under these circumstances DHS would send agents to whatever military facility the prisoner was detained at.
The DHS sent agents to USDB Fort Leavenworth and they talked to Inmate Taylor. They were then followed by a cheerful, smooth-talking, preppy, WASP-y yatch club member in good standing named 'Cam' Townsend JD, MBA (and God-knows-what-else), acting as emissary for his boss, Director* Vani Gujarat.

The main thrust of their argument seemed to be that they required Inmate Taylor to speak, in person, to some of his former associates, who could not be brought to Kansas.

*"Director of what?"
"Office of the Inspector General, Strategic Analysis Group."
"What's that?"
"We do analysis of long-term trends in procurement, enforcement strategies, training, standards and practices."
"What has that got to do with a national security investigation?"
"You have been fully briefed by your superiors, up to the limits of your security clearance."


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Yes, and they would most likely never leave the inmate alone with DHS personnel.
Can they do that?

I get that they can demand to retain custody and probably get that to stick, but custody doesn't imply permission to be present during all interviews.

For example, they would never be allowed to sit in on conferences with the inmate's defence attorney and if there is potential that any deal offered by the DHS might affect Inmate Taylor's chances of parole, he will probably be able to demand access to an attorney.

I don't know what happens if ICE/HSI or BDP investigators claim that they must interrogate Inmate Taylor about TS-SCI intelligence he was privy to as a serving soldier and that the CID agents are not cleared for that. Or that he still has operational information about foreign intelligence sources that they must obtain from him in connection with a joint task force operation against drug cartels that does not include the CID.

It would seem that the legal requirements of custody was served even if they didn't follow him into an interrogation room. After all, it's not as if regular police are not allowed to leave prisoners in locked or closed rooms, even with guests (lawyers, even family members or romantic partners in my experience) while still retaining legal custody of them.

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If Navy or Marine, they would probably at the very least have a pair of NCIS agents assigned as their babysitters/guards. Organization reports to the Sec of the Navy.
Air Force would be Office of Special Investigations. Organization reports to the Sec of the Air Force.
Army would be Criminal Investigation Command. Organization reports to Sec of the Army.

All three organizations are a mix of civilian and military personnel, with most personnel being civilian (with or without vet status).
It seems entirely plausible that instead of two US Marshals, which was my initial guess, there would simply be two US Army CID agents, either military 31D or civilian 1811. I'm not sure which or even if one or both of them should be enlisted (probably not both, given the political sensitivity of the DHS request).

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By tradition, most law-enforcement organizations are VERY territorial, especially at the Federal level. After all whoever is in lead (in charge) of an investigation or operation is the one that gets all the credit and can pass blame onto the other organizations as hindering them (if under a joint investigation/operation).
Granted. On the other hand, DHS is shovelling blame with both hands at the DOD and the US Army specifically for the disaster on the Mexican border, so I'm guessing that whatever shadowy figures within the DOD that are privy to the details of Onyx Rain did their best to ensure cooperation with the DHS for now.
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:34 PM   #13
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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They seem to be ranked as E-1, albeit without pay and allowances. Most importantly, they can be charged with insubordination to the 31E NCOs in the USDB.
You're confusing the usual language of a severe sentence ("...reduced to the lowest enlisted grade...") with their actual status. Misconduct by prisoners is a separate offense under the UCMJ.

Beyond military law classes, as a lieutenant I was stationed at Coleman Army Airfield in Germany -- also the location of the Disciplinary Barracks for US European Command at the time. The couple of times I served as installation Staff Duty Officer, I had to go into the DB and physically count the prisoners. I also served as investigating officer for a Report of Survey on one prisoner in the DB, to account for some equipment that he lost. When the guards brought him to report to me, he was not allowed to salute -- that exchange of courtesies is a privilege reserved for soldiers, not prisoners. He was addressed as "Prisoner So-and-so," not "Private."

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Are you sure that 31Es are the ones who transport lone witnesses or defendants (who happen to be soldiers convicted by court martial) to trial or the custody of another authority?
Reasonably certain, but there may well be exceptions. CID detachments are typically very small and overworked, and many of their assigned personnel are undercover (and thus not available for escort duties).

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Well... no AMRS facility, but the DHS would really prefer to be able to perform some medical checks which they don't want to discuss with the DOD more than necessary.*
There is (or at least used to be) a medical clinic inside the fence at the DB at Leavenworth. If that's not adequate for the tests, your DHS guys will probably have to manufacture an illness (pre-existing condition, say) that requires evacuation to some outside facility. I can't see the DB just handing a prisoner over for anything that looks like experimentation.

But, your world -- your rules.

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Having a US Army Special Forces detachment go AWOL in Mexico is pretty embarrassing for the military, after all, especially as it seems to have been a direct act of mutiny led by a full-bird Colonel.
A colonel would normally command the entire SF group, not any flavor of detachment. On the other hand, this anecdote reminds me of "Wake Up Call," by Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers. I've always wanted to use it as an adventure seed.

Last edited by thrash; 02-07-2017 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 02-07-2017, 08:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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I get that they can demand to retain custody and probably get that to stick, but custody doesn't imply permission to be present during all interviews.

For example, they would never be allowed to sit in on conferences with the inmate's defence attorney and if there is potential that any deal offered by the DHS might affect Inmate Taylor's chances of parole, he will probably be able to demand access to an attorney.
Defense Attorney is different and the Attorney does the interview in a location of the Agency's choice. Notice in pretty much all crime dramas, the "Client" is left with the Attorney in a Secure Conference Room.

When agents of a different agency, interview subjects and don't want the holding agency to be in the room, then it is in a Monitored Interrogation Room.

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I don't know what happens if ICE/HSI or BDP investigators claim that they must interrogate Inmate Taylor about TS-SCI intelligence he was privy to as a serving soldier and that the CID agents are not cleared for that. Or that he still has operational information about foreign intelligence sources that they must obtain from him in connection with a joint task force operation against drug cartels that does not include the CID.
This usually results in either a Special Agent of the detaining agency that is read in (i.e. has clearance) being brought in, or one or all of the agents present being read in.

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It would seem that the legal requirements of custody was served even if they didn't follow him into an interrogation room. After all, it's not as if regular police are not allowed to leave prisoners in locked or closed rooms, even with guests (lawyers, even family members or romantic partners in my experience) while still retaining legal custody of them.
These types of affairs are in rooms provided by the detaining agency, which knows they are secure and family members/domestic partners are subjected to at least a search equal to that at airports at the very least. How through the search is depends on the detainee and facility.

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It seems entirely plausible that instead of two US Marshals, which was my initial guess, there would simply be two US Army CID agents, either military 31D or civilian 1811. I'm not sure which or even if one or both of them should be enlisted (probably not both, given the political sensitivity of the DHS request).
The Senior Agent of the pair is most likely to be an extremely experienced agent. Most likely hand picked for the escort duty, so will probably be read in on at the very least how important this is.

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Granted. On the other hand, DHS is shovelling blame with both hands at the DOD and the US Army specifically for the disaster on the Mexican border, so I'm guessing that whatever shadowy figures within the DOD that are privy to the details of Onyx Rain did their best to ensure cooperation with the DHS for now.
The Sec of Defense and the Sec of the Army will still try to retain as much "face" as they can in the situation. So will want to "control" the events around the detainee as much as possible.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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*"Director of what?"
"Office of the Inspector General, Strategic Analysis Group."
"What's that?"
"We do analysis of long-term trends in procurement, enforcement strategies, training, standards and practices."
And the bafflegab flag is down on the play -- I've been an IG, too. But your average Joe probably won't twig to it. Carry on.

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Can they do that?
Almost certainly. The DHS agents themselves can't claim attorney-client privilege, and the only people at Fort Leavenworth likely to be in a position to evaluate their security clearances will also have a need to know that they aren't doing anything illegal. Remember: the DB is responsible for anything that happens to the prisoner. They take that responsibility very seriously.

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I don't know what happens if ICE/HSI or BDP investigators claim that they must interrogate Inmate Taylor about TS-SCI intelligence he was privy to as a serving soldier and that the CID agents are not cleared for that. Or that he still has operational information about foreign intelligence sources that they must obtain from him in connection with a joint task force operation against drug cartels that does not include the CID.
What happens is a huge mud-wrestling match, only it won't be CID in charge on the military side -- this is Military Intelligence territory.

First, DHS has to provide a [security] clearance letter to someone on the military side with the clearance to receive and evaluate it, and the chain-of-command authority to provide the access they need. That's a major command level call, if not DOD. If the DB personnel aren't cleared for the contents of the interview -- and they almost certainly are not -- expect the MACOM (probably NORTHCOM, in Colorado Springs) to send an MI officer with the appropriate clearances (read on to the compartment just for the purpose, if necessary) as escort. That officer will be present during the interviews, to ensure that the prisoner's rights are respected and that nothing the DHS agents are not cleared to hear gets discussed.

Or they skip protocol and try to flim-flam their way through. If they get busted, though, the whole affair will be aired out for the wide (appropriately classified) world to see.

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Old 02-07-2017, 09:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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You're confusing the usual language of a severe sentence ("...reduced to the lowest enlisted grade...") with their actual status. Misconduct by prisoners is a separate offense under the UCMJ.

Beyond military law classes, I was stationed as a lieutenant at Coleman Army Airfield in Germany -- also the location of the Disciplinary Barracks for US European Command at the time. The couple of times I served as installation Staff Duty Officer, I had to go into the DB and physically count the prisoners. I also served as investigating officer for a Report of Survey on one prisoner in the DB, to account for some equipment that he lost. When the guards brought him to report to me, he was not allowed to salute -- that exchange of courtesies is a privilege reserved for soldiers, not prisoners. He was addressed as "Prisoner So-and-so," not "Private."
Fair enough.

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Reasonably certain, but there may well be exceptions. CID detachments are typically very small and overworked, and many of their assigned personnel are undercover (and thus not available for escort duties).
The facility that the DHS needs to take Inmate Taylor to in order to speak with his former associate is one that neither they nor the Army prefer to draw attention to. Everyone involved would prefer that several non-descript suit-wearing men travel to Jewell Island on the ferry rather than having uniformed soldiers take an obvious prisoner there.

Personnel who can provide discreet security* while remaining undercover are much to be prefered over enlisted Correctional Specialists. There is also the fact that Onyx Rain higher-ups rate a gross physical attempt to escape or an attack on Inmate Taylor's escort as a much lower order of probability than some form of collusion between him and other subjects of the investigation. There is also a strong guard contingent on Jewell Island, answering to the FPS. Additional physical security, while no doubt provided on the 'better safe than sorry' principle, is much less necessary than HUMINT, counterintelligence or investigative savy.

*Not that Inmate Taylor is considered a major flight risk, as he is being offered the possiblity of parole much earlier than otherwise would be possible and has convinced his handlers that he is sincere in agreeing to cooperate.

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There is (or at least used to be) a medical clinic inside the fence at the DB at Leavenworth. If that's not adequate for the tests, your DHS guys will probably have to manufacture an illness (pre-existing condition, say) that requires evacuation to some outside facility. I can't see the DB just handing a prisoner over for anything that looks like experimentation.

But, your world -- your rules.
The DHS doesn't want to perform any experimentation. They want to determine the current medical status of Inmate Taylor because he was a part of Project Jade Serenity 17 years ago. Among other things, they want to rule out any form of contagious medical issue.

They do not, however, wish to inform ordinary Correction Specialists or various health services personnel of Fort Leavenworth of what they know about the after-effects of Project Jade Serenity. As far as the faction represented by our handlers is concerned, anyone who works for the US Army* is potentially compromised, given that they still do not know to what extent the illegal experiments were the responsibility of rogue scientists under contract with DARPA BTO before the turn of the millenium and to what extent high-ranking officers within the modern military were aware of the experiments.

*Or even the DOD, depending on their level of paranoia.

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A colonel would normally command the entire SF group, not any flavor of detachment. On the other hand, this anecdote reminds me of "Wake Up Call," by Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers. I've always wanted to use it as an adventure seed.
Col. Alejandro Ortiz was the Deputy Chief of J3 (Operations), a staff officer at USSOCOM - SOCSOUTH. Why he was placed on temporary detached duty organising a classified counter-drug operation in Mexico with a small team, normally duty for a more junior officer, is unclear. Why he took personal command of a hand-picked detachment of operators who almost all had personal history with him reaching back to before the turn of the century is even less clear.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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The Senior Agent of the pair is most likely to be an extremely experienced agent. Most likely hand picked for the escort duty, so will probably be read in on at the very least how important this is.
Indeed.

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The Sec of Defense and the Sec of the Army will still try to retain as much "face" as they can in the situation. So will want to "control" the events around the detainee as much as possible.
It's entirely possible that what the esteemed secretaries are told about this, if anything, will be highly edited by whatever shadowy figures within the military bureaucracy who have a vested interest in avoiding any disclosures from the ancient past of Project Jade Serenity.

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And the bafflegab flag is down on the play -- I've been an IG, too. But your average Joe probably won't twig to it. Carry on.
It's highly unlikely that Director Vani Gujarat or Cam Townsend have ever performed the duties of regular personnel from the Office of the Inspector General. Most likely, their shiny new ID was issued simply to give Onyx Rain official status without implicating whatever real office they come from. Then again, a former OIG of the DHS is among those whom my character strongly suspects of being behind whatever conspiracy is controlling the faction of our handlers at Onyx Rain, so maybe they do really work for the current OIG.

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Almost certainly. The DHS agents themselves can't claim attorney-client privilege, and the only people at Fort Leavenworth likely to be in a position to evaluate their security clearances will also have a need to know that they aren't doing anything illegal. Remember: the DB is responsible for anything that happens to the prisoner. They take that responsibility very seriously.
What needs to happen for that responsibility to end?

Can Inmate Taylor legally be transfered somewhere else, where his care will not be the responsibility of the Fort Leavenworth people?

Can he be remanded into the custody of Military Intelligence? Some other DOD agency?

Or can be be declared insane, medically discharged from the Army and subsequently moved to the Manhanock Asylum for the Criminally Insane?

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What happens is a huge mud-wrestling match, only it won't be CID in charge on the military side -- this is Military Intelligence territory.

First, DHS has to provide a [security] clearance letter to someone on the military side with the clearance to receive and evaluate it, and the chain-of-command authority to provide the access they need. That's a major command level call, if not DOD. If the DB personnel aren't cleared for the contents of the interview -- and they almost certainly are not -- expect the MACOM (probably NORTHCOM, in Colorado Springs) to send an MI officer with the appropriate clearances (read on to the compartment just for the purpose, if necessary) as escort. That officer will be present during the interviews, to ensure that the prisoner's rights are respected and that nothing the DHS agents are not cleared to hear gets discussed.
If that will do, that's fine. Onyx Rain is a joint task force, for all the distrust that the DHS personnel in it feel for the DOD people, and includes at least one senior MI officer with a Special Forces background.

There is also a DIA officer and a small team of 'Army of Northern Virginia' ISA/Grey Fox/United States Army Studies and Analysis Activity HUMINT/SIGINT operators.

All of these already know more than our PCs ever know and are cleared to know anything Inmate Taylor might discuss with patient Sherilyn Bell in the course of asking for her cooperation with Operation Onyx Rain.

Legally, I assume it would be better to have the US Army MI officer accompany Taylor and the two DHS Special Agents with him than to have the DIA officer do so?

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Or they skip protocol and try to flim-flam their way through. If they get busted, though, the whole affair will be aired out for the wide (appropriately classified) world to see.
At some point, this will need to happen. After all, the people behind Onyx Rain do not plan to leave anyone who was part of Project Jade Serenity in the hands of anyone not fully aware of all the implications. At best, they plan to monitor former test subjects for the rest of their lives, which will probably involve formal or informal positions as Onyx Rain employees or assets.

At worst, they have a cover story ready for the terrorist attack that kills any of us who can't be quietly disappeared.
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Old 02-07-2017, 10:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

The film The Last Detail, starring Jack Nicholson and Randy Quaid from 1973 is about two Navy sailors who have the shore patrol detail of escorting another sailor from Norfolk, VA (where they all start) to Portsmouth Naval Prison in Kittery, Maine.

It was nominated for 3 Oscars, might be a film of interest.
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Old 02-07-2017, 11:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Custody of federal prisoners convicted at court martial or unfit for trial

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Criminal sentences include mandatory reenlistment for the duration of the sentence, as far as I can tell. Otherwise you wouldn't have people in Leavenworth serving hard time.
Criminal conviction by court-martial does not involve mandatory reenlistment. The time served does not count as active duty time. Thus if an E-2 had been on active duty for one year (365 days) and was convicted of a crime and served a sentence of five years, when discharged from prison that E-2 would be on day 366 of his or her enlistment.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:35 AM   #20
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What happens is a huge mud-wrestling match, only it won't be CID in charge on the military side -- this is Military Intelligence territory.
Are you sure that Military Intelligence is actually allowed to effectively participate in a criminal investigation where some of the suspects are US citizens?

It seems to me that it would be a violation of Executive Order 12333, in that it would inevitably lead to MI collecting and maintaining intelligence on US persons, in this case Inmate Taylor and several of his associates.

This seems to me to require a federal agency allowed to collect criminal intelligence. That would include numerous agencies that fall under the DHS, as well as the USACIDC. It also includes agencies falling under the Department of Justice which might seem a more natural fit, but for whatever reason, Onyx Rain appears to be keeping the FBI at arms length as much as possible.

Of course, a US Army Counterintelligence Officer (35E) or Counterintelligence Special Agent (35L) is probably the most natural fit.

That does bring up a rather interesting question, as the backstory for the campaign indicates that one 18E of the 7th SFG(A) ODA that partipated in Project Jade Serenity became a SFC in a 35L MOS before 2006. He's either a civilian, a senior NCO or a warrant officer by now. On the other hand, it has not been established whether he was assigned to the Special Forces detachment in Mexico that went AWOL or, even if he wasn't, whether he would be trusted considering his connection to Col. Ortiz and multiple other former Jade Serenity test subjects.

Obviously, the whole Onyx Rain task force is on legally shaky ground, potentially violating Posse Comitatus, a whole bunch of Constitutional rights, the territoral integrity of an allied nation and presidential proscriptions on targeted assassinations, but at least as far as outsiders to it are concerned, I want to maintain the appearance of legality.
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