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Old 07-18-2011, 01:00 PM   #21
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Don't worry, there's still time to get it right:
You're missing the point - by the time a draft has been written the decision has already been made about rough book length and content. To change the content and length after the first drafts have already been completed would add considerable time and expense to the project. Just because a draft is a preliminary version doesn't mean that the project can be completely changed with ease.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:31 PM   #22
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

By the time we're announcing that we have a draft, the major content is settled. Revisions will happen, but that means a word here, a little rearranging there, and a few corrections. The mission of a book is established at the outline stage, and successive drafts serve only to better fit the work to the mission. The mission of these two items is to present armor. Neither was outlined as a guide to anything but armor.

Generally, people who want input at the outline stage are encouraged to write books. We do not outline books to order, and we definitely do not want writers to alter outlines once they've been paid for a draft.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

Well, since I wish good things for SJG in general, it's too bad to hear that momentum could lead to putting out a sub-optimal volume.

Think about it -- you're publishing a book of loadouts about archetypal warriors of the past, and it will be confined to only the armor? Honestly, it seems like the design was far too influenced by the fact that you happen to have a willing and interested armor expert. In terms of load-outs, generally people intending to play a type of character need the whole thing (wasn't that the principle notion behind Loadouts in general?). And in terms of gaming, my personal impression is that most people find weapons grab their attention more than armor.

Really, on this one, I'd go back to the drawing board if I were you, usual corporate practice notwithstanding.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

Now you are being silly. As soon as someone adds the weapons that you want, someone else will complain about all the other weapons that weren't included. Then someone else will complain about all the other gear that was carried by that person. What about saddles and saddle blankets? What about rations?

I've written a GURPS book about historical armour, not about "archetypal warriors of the past". Each page has armour from a different time or culture. Each armour piece has been individually calculated using the rules in Low-Tech and a single cost and weight is at the bottom of each stat block. If you want to add a weapon then pick one from Low-Tech and include it. You don't need a book to tell you how to do it. It doesn't matter which weapon I picked you wouldn't be happy with it anyway. If you don't want a GURPS book about historical armour then don't buy it. You don't get to tell everyone else that they can't have it.

I wrote a book about a subject that interests me. If others are interested too then SJG and I might make a little money from the project but it will be nowhere near enough to compensate me for the time spent researching and writing it.

Last edited by DanHoward; 07-18-2011 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Now you are being silly. As soon as someone adds the weapons that you want, someone else will complain about all the other weapons that weren't included. Then someone else will complain about all the other gear that was carried by that person. What about saddles and saddle blankets? What about rations?

I've written a GURPS book about historical armour, not about "archetypal warriors of the past". Each page has armour from a different time or culture. Each armour piece has been individually calculated using the rules in Low-Tech and a single cost and weight is at the bottom of each stat block. If you want to add a weapon then pick one from Low-Tech and include it. You don't need a book to tell you how to do it. It doesn't matter which weapon I picked you wouldn't be happy with it anyway. If you don't want a GURPS book about historical armour then don't buy it. You don't get to tell everyone else that they can't have it.
Actually, "Typical early republic roman legionaire" Loadout with lenses for a centurion, horsemen, auxiliaries, etc would be a lot more useful to me than just an armor loadout. Repeat for tokugawa-era japan, hellenic phalanx, mongol horseman, etc etc.

If you only want to write the armor loadouts, fine. But I would prefer full loadouts.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:16 PM   #26
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Actually, "Typical early republic roman legionaire" Loadout with lenses for a centurion, horsemen, auxiliaries, etc would be a lot more useful to me than just an armor loadout. Repeat for tokugawa-era japan, hellenic phalanx, mongol horseman, etc etc.

If you only want to write the armor loadouts, fine. But I would prefer full loadouts.
I have no interest in writing that and would need to be paid a lot more to spend months on a project that doesn't interest me.

The book, as it stands, is an expanded version of the Roman Legionary loadout in Low-Tech.

Last edited by DanHoward; 07-18-2011 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

After thinking about it, all that would be needed for a near-complete loadout is a single text box with all of the other things that were carried on campaign - cloaks, rations, war saddles, blankets, etc are given the same stats in Low-Tech regardless of which culture you are talking about.

Last edited by DanHoward; 07-18-2011 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Well, since I wish good things for SJG in general, it's too bad to hear that momentum could lead to putting out a sub-optimal volume.

Think about it -- you're publishing a book of loadouts about archetypal warriors of the past, and it will be confined to only the armor? Honestly, it seems like the design was far too influenced by the fact that you happen to have a willing and interested armor expert. In terms of load-outs, generally people intending to play a type of character need the whole thing (wasn't that the principle notion behind Loadouts in general?). And in terms of gaming, my personal impression is that most people find weapons grab their attention more than armor.

Really, on this one, I'd go back to the drawing board if I were you, usual corporate practice notwithstanding.
I don't mean this in a flame way, but do you have any idea how the SJG book writing policy works? It would seem that you don't, or are willfully disregarding that in a way just to cast aspersions.

The way it works is that an author thinks of an idea. Perhaps he writes it up a bit, does some research. Then he'll generate an outline, from A-HEAD chapters down to C-HEAD or D-HEAD sections and subsections. Depending on the likely length of the proposal, he'll include a writing sample in SJG style guide.

Various notables, but largely Steven and Sean, will consider the proposal and give you the go-ahead, or not. Perhaps there are issues with SJG style; perhaps the proposal needs to be tweaked. But by and large, if they approve it, it's to write to the outline AS SUBMITTED AND APPROVED.

From there, the author executes to the outline, hopefully making wordcount and deadline. If so it'll get submitted, a first read-through and comments, then any changes, then a playtest if necessary, then incorporate PT comments, then final draft.

I was in one playtest, a while back, of a draft that was not really SJG suitable, and it got put through the wringer and eventually became GURPS: Covert Ops for 3ed. But otherwise, if the concept is well carried out, you get a well-written and executed version of the outline as submitted.

But if I submit a proposal for GURPS: Modern Fighter Aircraft, and turn in a draft that's really GURPS: Combined Warfare Including Airplanes, I'm going to get thumped, and likely a mark against me saying "unable to deliver to commitment."

If Dan submitted a proposal on historically accurate armor sets, that's what he's going to write. Period.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:14 PM   #29
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Now you are being silly. As soon as someone adds the weapons that you want, someone else will complain about all the other weapons that weren't included. Then someone else will complain about all the other gear that was carried by that person. What about saddles and saddle blankets? What about rations?
Well, yes, exactly. How often will players need to know about armor and NOT those other things?

Quote:
I've written a GURPS book about historical armour, not about "archetypal warriors of the past". Each page has armour from a different time or culture. Each armour piece has been individually calculated using the rules in Low-Tech and a single cost and weight is at the bottom of each stat block.
And you sold the idea on the strength of your knowledge, skill and reliability. The ease of the deal for both parties at this level was such that you didn't see the full potential of the Right product.

Quote:
If you want to add a weapon then pick one from Low-Tech and include it.
That seems at odds with the key idea behind Loadouts.

Quote:
You don't need a book to tell you how to do it. It doesn't matter which weapon I picked you wouldn't be happy with it anyway.
The idea would be to tell people what weapons were historically used by the warrior who wore the armor. I agree that it might be quite simple to do with existing published info -- all the more reason not to leave it out now.

Quote:
If you don't want a GURPS book about historical armour then don't buy it. You don't get to tell everyone else that they can't have it.
I might well buy it, but I'm saying I'd pay more and surely for complete loadouts rather than restricted to armor. Please don't be offended by that -- your armor work would be a pillar and sine qua non of such a book.


Quote:
I wrote a book about a subject that interests me. If others are interested too then SJG and I might make a little money from the project but it will be nowhere near enough to compensate me for the time spent researching and writing it.
I'll bet the work is excellent. All I am saying is that broadening it could make it more remunerative.

FYI, here is the idea I PMed to Kromm a couple of minutes ago:
Quote:
... my opinion is that a volume that load-out historic or archetypal warrior from zero to sixty would be snazzier than one that focuses on armor.

Take the same cast of fighters in the presently planned volume (guessing e.g. legionaries, Aztec Jaguar warriors, samurai) and instead of only armor, imagine their whole kit is provided, along with a template and the martial art style.

Be any warrior -- in under 5 minutes!

Great for players, indispensible for IW GMs
.

Last edited by Figleaf23; 07-18-2011 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: [DF] Basic Set, Low Tech or Bruno's Armor?

I'd prefer to see a page dedicated to this in the appropriate setting book. GURPS Egypt would have a page or two with loadouts for Egyptian charioteers, infantry, scouts, etc.
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