Why doesn't Brawling have a Default?

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Good point. In horror and similar low-point games you're far more likely to have characters lacking fundamental adventurer skills. I suppose the counter argument here is that if untrained PCs brawl at skill 6 instead of skill 10 they're even less likely to survive... but that really seems like a matter of encounter balance rather than a rules problem. If the PC party lacks any fighting skills, then a "tough" encounter changes from fighting an equal number of skill 10 thugs, to fighting a single skill 10 thug.

I agree completely. They might be someone who has firearms training but is currently unarmed, or something like that.

Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that players know they can fight at DX level with their fists. If that wasn't the case, I think they'd put the point into some fighting skill (which is a distortion of its own, since then they have to adjust their character's backstory to explain the presence of the skill).

One other thing: in GURPS, you can punch someone for a lot of damage. The unrealistically-high damage is another factor here. Unarmed fighting is free, and it does super high damage. Put those together and it's no surprise to me that I often see people willing to play the single mother who works as a clerk at a convenience store and has no combat skills, but happens to be stronger and more dexterous than a normal person, so she has ST and DX 11, which allows her to punch for 1d-2 (1d on an AoA) and kick for 1d-1 (or 1d+1 on an AoA--The same as a .22 LR!). She can fight just about as well unarmed as if she had a knife and were trained in its use. I've seen these types of noncombatants fight off assailants. It works, so players keep doing it.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Do they miss more than they would if they flailed their empty hands?

Surprisingly, yes. You can even see it in security footage of attempted robberies. Fists hit quite often, but missing becomes a regular occurrence as soon as somebody grabs a weapon. Of course, said weapon generally does more damage than empty hands, so those hits count a lot more.

[Nyarli]

In general there are plenty of rules which allow untrained fighters to use weapons with DX, but they are buried in many different books.

First of all I want to remind you of Pummeling. DX-1 thr cr with any sword or reach c or 1 melee weapon. Full DX if weapon have a knuckle guard.

Next - Pistol whipping. Full DX , thr-1+|Bulk|, meaning thr+1 with average modern pistol (decent) or thr+3 with dragoon pistol (ow!).

Finally, quote-mining Kromm for fun and profit:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Most untrained attacks to the skull don't properly use Axe/Mace or Broadsword – they're simply punches at full DX, enhanced with an improvised weapon. Going by what Martial Arts says, most such things give -1 to -3 to hit for being improvised. With the -5 for the skull from behind, that's -6 to -8. The +8 for All-Out Attack (Determined) and Telegraphic Attack results in a net DX+2 at best, DX at worst. From slightly above, add another +1, as noted. Damage will be as per a punch at +1 or +2, though, and not swing damage.

DX-1 to -3, thr or thr+1. Unless Kromm somehow suggests that it's not possible to attack other hit locations (somehow), these rules may be useful for future reference. In fact with minimum DX penalty (-1) and minimum damage bonus (+1) such attack is equivalent to Pummeling. It is not clear from the thread, whether that meant only for sticks or can be used with blades for cutting damage.

All in all, I still have a question, as to why pistols are better than any other melee weapon in unskilled hands, both damage-wise and skill-wise (need to increase your hand-to-hand potential RIGHT NOW? Acquire a gun and don't care about ammo), but we already have enough official rules to make grabbing lead pipe attractive if not obvious choice.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

One other thing: in GURPS, you can punch someone for a lot of damage. The unrealistically-high damage is another factor here. Unarmed fighting is free, and it does super high damage. Put those together and it's no surprise to me that I often see people willing to play the single mother who works as a clerk at a convenience store and has no combat skills, but happens to be stronger and more dexterous than a normal person, so she has ST and DX 11, which allows her to punch for 1d-2 (1d on an AoA) and kick for 1d-1 (or 1d+1 on an AoA--The same as a .22 LR!). She can fight just about as well unarmed as if she had a knife and were trained in its use. I've seen these types of noncombatants fight off assailants. It works, so players keep doing it.

I don't know well guns, so I can't speak about the .22 LR damage (maybe they have to be increased a bit). But what I know quite well is kicking. Kicks are really dangerous, especially when you strike with all the strength you can - which is what an all-out attack (strong) means. A couple of kicks can kill someone. Really. If you look at the news, you will see a lot of true stories where someone kicked someone else at the torso and killed him without really wanting it. So, please, don't try it, even when you are really angry. Likewise, punching with all your strength can break ribs, nose, teeth, or even jaws... It's less dangerous than kicking but it is absolutely not like what we can see in movies, where heroes are punched hundreds of times in the face and go n fighting without any problem (and almost no visible wound the day after)...

So, in my humble opinion, bare handed damage are not at all super damage. They do correspond to reality: most bare handed combats in the street end with one of the fighter going to hospital...

And for knives damage, they may appear very low if you just consider the basic damage, but don't forget the wounding modifier. An all-out (strong) knife strike in the bully from an average guy does 1d x 2 points of damage*, without even taking into account bleeding! So, yes, a non trained character can try to punch a bad guy with a knife... But he will surely wish he hadn't.

*Which means 7 point of damage (a major wound!) for an average blow.

[fifiste]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Having been training and training others in various versions of Escrima (Pekiti Tersia Kali and Modern Arnis)for quite a while, I'll tell you that is 100% how it works in real life.

There is something about taking a trained empty hand martial artist and adding reach and leverage that completely discombobulates them.

Yeah but I'm talking about someone with no training. I doubt that grabbing a stick is such a detriment from someone who has had no training either way. Swinging something seems to me as natural (or more) than straight out punching someone (which seems more like trained behaviour - untrained one would more likely be flailing and pummeling with hammer fist etc.* the same flailing that transitions quite smoothly to swinging a stick)

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Familiarity from rough schoolyard days?

Schoolyard lessons for me seems to bne that when somevbody has harder time hitting someone with a stick than with a hand then its more likely because they were just posing and the idea of actually hurting or killing someone with a blunt object holds them back.
Having some even harder lessons of schoolyard type I can say that in actuality it did not seem to hinder me or someone else so much when s**** really hits the fan. Especially as it removes the fear (and quite a few "to hit" penalties so to speak seem to stem fromfear)of hurting YOUR hand so much.
MAybe the latter could be translated that someone with a lead pipe is more likely to take determined attacks etc. and someone with bare hands more likely to fight defensively etc.
Otherwise: It is too easy to reach to this that is somewhat troubling to me:

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I've seen it come up often enough, particularly in horror games.

DM: "The cultist pulls the knife from his belt and stares at you intently. What do you do?"

Player 1: "I... grab the lead pipe and hold it up ready to fight!"

Player 2: "Big mistake."

[Nyarli]

It was stated a few times that people killed in regular brawls are usually victim of Critical hits(and seriously, a lot of people are kicked every day, but only a small fraction end up crippled or killed). But more importantly, melee attacks have disproportional penetration. Someone could strap DR 7 metal plate to his chest andrecieve hits from 22lr pistols all day long, until some freak accident (in GURPS terms really unlucky critical hit). But ST 11 with Brawling at DX+2 and bruss knuckles, going All-Out (Strong) would injure that someone one times out of six.

[fifiste]

Originally Posted by fifiste

Schoolyard lessons for me seems to bne that when somevbody has harder time hitting someone with a stick than with a hand then its more likely because they were just posing and the idea of actually hurting or killing someone with a blunt object holds them back.

Self quoting: one idea if it seems that people tend to hit eachotehr at random brawls better with fist that with bottles or knives or lead pipes is that most of the population (even those int he drunken brawl) will have reluctant killer which will trigger on wielding such items but not on punching flailing which is at least "seen" as harmless enough activity.
Not because we are so inherently better at punching than swinging.
As more lighthearted schoolyard lesson when people were chasing after each-other with harmless enough sticks/batons (lght or soft enough plastic etc. pool noodles and duck tape and paper thingies) nobody seemed to have too much trouble hitting people or things.

[Kraydak]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I don't know well guns, so I can't speak about the .22 LR damage (maybe they have to be increased a bit). But what I know quite well is kicking. Kicks are really dangerous, especially when you strike with all the strength you can - which is what an all-out attack (strong) means. A couple of kicks can kill someone. Really. If you look at the news, you will see a lot of true stories where someone kicked someone else at the torso and killed him without really wanting it. So, please, don't try it, even when you are really angry. Likewise, punching with all your strength can break ribs, nose, teeth, or even jaws... It's less dangerous than kicking but it is absolutely not like what we can see in movies, where heroes are punched hundreds of times in the face and go n fighting without any problem (and almost no visible wound the day after)...

So, in my humble opinion, bare handed damage are not at all super damage. They do correspond to reality: most bare handed combats in the street end with one of the fighter going to hospital...

And for knives damage, they may appear very low if you just consider the basic damage, but don't forget the wounding modifier. An all-out (strong) knife strike in the bully from an average guy does 1d x 2 points of damage*, without even taking into account bleeding! So, yes, a non trained character can try to punch a bad guy with a knife... But he will surely wish he hadn't.

*Which means 7 point of damage (a major wound!) for an average blow.

I think you are overestimating the danger of a kick. Going to the CDC website, and comparing Fatal injury (homicide) vs Injury (assault, non-sexual), playing fast and loose with the dates selected (because we have to), we find

a) firearm homicide/injury rate=0.19 (note that the FBI stats say that most of the firearm fatalities are using handguns).

b) cut/pierce homicide/injury rate=0.013 (I assume this is completely dominated by knives/things that GURPS would treat as knives).

c) struck by/against homicide/injury rate=0.00009. (Given the options to select from, this should include unarmed attacks, blunt improvised weapons and getting thrown/shoved into walls, but NOT falls. I'm not entirely sure though. Note that the death/injury rate for UNintentional struck by/against events is double that of violence-related ones…)

Note that the CDC can only list injuries that it is made aware of… which will include basically all of the homicides, all of the firearm injuries, most of the cut/pierce injuries, but probably only a decent fraction of the struck by/againsts, so the last set of ratios are probably artificially high. Unfortunately, the CDC doesn't list the data by number of bullet wounds/stab wounds. Conveniently, the firearm death/injury rate is about the same as the chance of hitting the vitals on a torso hit (assuming that you use those rules). That is about the only way to kill someone with 1 handgun bullet in GURPS, assuming that medical help arrives within half an hour.

Note that thanks to the wounding modifiers, knives are not that much less dangerous than 9mm bullets. The main difference between the two come in vitals hits (2d+2 X3 >> 1d X3). If you don't use the Martial Arts special bleeding rules, and there are very few multiple stab wound events, then the cut/pierce data kinda-sorta works with GURPS rules. If you do use the MA bleeding rules, or allow for multiple stab wound events, then GURPS vastly overestimates the danger posed by knives.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Kraydak

I think you are overestimating the danger of a kick.

That may be right. But even if it is, punch and kick damage are not so high...

6 punches (or 5 kicks) as strong as the character can are necessary to have only 1 chance in 2 to kill someone average... While only 3 knife blows in the stomach will be sufficient to have the same consequences.

Originally Posted by Kraydak

Note that thanks to the wounding modifiers, knives are not that much less dangerous than 9mm bullets.

They are. 1d x 2 gives an average result of 7 (with a minimum of 2) while 2d+2 gives an average result of 9 (with a minimum of 4).

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Gollum

They are. 1d x 2 gives an average result of 7 (with a minimum of 2) while 2d+2 gives an average result of 9 (with a minimum of 4).

I would call 7 vs 9 "not much less dangerous". One hit will be a Major Wound, and three hits will trigger a Death Check. On average the knife will require slightly more hits to incapacitate or kill, with the randomness of rolls. But they're definitely close in terms of lethality.