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Old 08-11-2022, 11:36 PM   #31
phiwum
 
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

I think you're right, Axly. Same answers as I came up with, but I hadn't even thought of the Rope spell.

But it's a bit unfortunate that the text says "Magical Attacks" rather than "Thrown Spells".
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Old 08-12-2022, 11:23 AM   #32
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But it's a bit unfortunate that the text says "Magical Attacks" rather than "Thrown Spells".
Right. It begs the question of what exactly a magical attack is. Is an enchanted weapon that affects creatures susceptible to magical weapons considered a magical attack?

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Magical attacks in this case are definitely Thrown spells. These are not affected by dodging, nor by flying. ...

And I was going to say creation spells don't target beings but Rope spell does. So, I would also apply the DX -4 if trying to put Rope on a flier within range.
Regarding the penalty on the Rope spell, on what basis do you make that determination? It seems more than a little arbitrary to say that Thrown spells receive no penalty against a flying target yet impose one on Creation spells for which no penalty is ever mentioned in the rules. Do you then also make wizards cast Rope on a 4d roll if the target is defending or dodging?
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Old 08-12-2022, 11:29 AM   #33
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Do the same rules from ITL 132 "Using Magic from Horseback" apply to casting spells to or from flight? What if the wizard is riding a Pegasus-unicorn?
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Old 08-12-2022, 12:03 PM   #34
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

This has been a great discussion. Kudos to phiwum for stirring this pot.

I remember a classic character that rode a Pegasus. There were always fairly lively discussions about the DX modifiers for flying creatures and fighters on flying creatures. I'm trying to access my deep memory banks to remember how most were resolved.
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Old 08-16-2022, 03:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
So, all attacks?
Or just attacks on one-hex critters? Or just non-magical attacks? And what's a magical attack?

It's the fact that these three excerpts are evidently inconsistent that prompted the thread.

The other two issues (penalties for attacks from flyers and bonus to hit multi-hex flyers) seem fairly straightforward.

But when you say that, just using the rules, you conclude "All flying targets are at -4 to hit (unless "in a tunnel")," you're only using bits of the rules and you're glossing over what you're counting as an attack.
They don't look very inconsistent to me. Possible to get confused about, sure. Imprecise, sure. "Magical attack" not really defined, yes.

So what are the actual resulting questions? I see:

1) What about attacks on multi-hex fliers?
A) Basic Wizard and the GM Screen offer one answer to this, which is only -1 DX for all multi-hex creatures. To me, it is clear that that is a basic rule, which is replacable by the more advanced rule in Advanced Melee and Legacy ITL, which would have the penalty be -4 for multi-hex fliers not stuck (e.g. in a tunnel) offset by +1 for each hex the firer can trace LOS to (except the first hex).

2) What's a magical attack as mentioned there.
A) It means a Thrown spell.

3) Why does the Flight spell say its penalty is for the subject being awkward, but its penalty to melee-attack ground targets is actually on -2, instead of the -4 that AM/ITL gives?
A) Because it was written before that penalty was added to the rules, and never integrated. The logical response is to add the -4 DX for fliers attacking ground targets, so someone using a Flight spell would be at a total -6 DX to do that.

Any other questions?
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Old 08-16-2022, 08:15 PM   #36
Axly Suregrip
 
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Right. It begs the question of what exactly a magical attack is. Is an enchanted weapon that affects creatures susceptible to magical weapons considered a magical attack?


Regarding the penalty on the Rope spell, on what basis do you make that determination? It seems more than a little arbitrary to say that Thrown spells receive no penalty against a flying target yet impose one on Creation spells for which no penalty is ever mentioned in the rules. Do you then also make wizards cast Rope on a 4d roll if the target is defending or dodging?
My bad, I got twisted around on that. You are right. I would treat Rope the same as Thrown. That is, not apply the DX -4.

Thus the magical attack would include all thrown spells AND Rope. But not include missile spells or any other magical attack (swing a magical sword) that can be classified as something else (eg. missile attack, melee attack, etc).
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Old 08-17-2022, 03:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Can you cast Fire into the hex of a figure in midair?
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Old 08-17-2022, 04:59 PM   #38
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

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Can you cast Fire into the hex of a figure in midair?
No.

Wall, Fire and Shadow must be cast on solid ground.
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Old 08-24-2022, 08:57 AM   #39
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Default Re: DX penalties for attacking a flying critter

Is levitation by a spell (or disease) the same effect as winged flight?


Levitation vs Winged Flight in The Fantasy Trip
By Henry Cobb

While the actual listed adjustments for attacks from or against flying creatures in the TFT rulebooks are correct, the same word "flight" is used for two different concepts. The Flight spell (ITL 25), its enchantment, and vampirism provide Levitation, while flying carpets, gargoyles, dragons, bats, birds and the like have winged flight.
The differences are:
  1. Levitating figures are at -2 DX for all actions, and an additional -2 DX (total -4) for all thrown weapons or missile attacks, but they have no further penalty to attack landed figures.
  2. As a levitating figure isn't using wings it is immune to special effects from wing shots and will remain hovering in midair even if entangled.
  3. If a levitating or winged flight figure has twice its own height in vertical space available then it is attacked at -4 DX and it only engages and is engaged by landed figures if it chooses to be. (If currently engaged by landed figures then it can take a Shift maneuver to rise out of engagement in its current location.)
  4. A winged flight figure is at -4 DX to attack landed figures (except for dragon fire).
  5. Winged flight figures have at least doubled MA high up outside of combat.
  6. The note of "Target is a multi-hex figure in flight -1" from the GM Screen is a simplification from the Wizard boardgame. GMs may use either this or "Oversized Targets" (ITL 116).
  7. The Air elemental is a special case as it normally attacks an area and has no penalty to do so, while being itself attacked as a winged flier.
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Last edited by hcobb; 08-24-2022 at 09:27 AM.
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