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Old 09-24-2017, 01:02 PM   #11
sir_pudding
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Default Re: foci in MtA

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
As to the latter, can you supply a quotation?
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Originally Posted by Ars Goetia
(71.) DANTALION. - The Seventy-first Spirit is Dantalion. He is a Duke Great and Mighty, appearing in the Form of a Man with many
Countenances, all Men’s and Women’s Faces; and he hath a Book in his right hand. His Office is to teach all Arts and Sciences unto any; and to declare the Secret Counsel of any one; for he knoweth the Thoughts of all Men and Women, and can change them at his Will. He can cause Love, and show the Similitude of any person, and show the same by a Vision, let them be in what part of the World they Will. He governeth 36 Legions of Spirits; and this is his Seal, which wear thou, etc.
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And is there a generic class of magical things that can be used for similar effects, say for impulse projection or illusion creation or mind control?
Yes, there are seventy-two demons in the Ars Goetia (and more in the Weyer from which it was likely cribbed) but it is a grimiore, not an RPG book, so it is really redundant. Almost all of them will make you witty and tell you secrets.
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Old 09-24-2017, 01:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: foci in MtA

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Yes, there are seventy-two demons in the Ars Goetia (and more in the Weyer from which it was likely cribbed) but it is a grimiore, not an RPG book, so it is really redundant. Almost all of them will make you witty and tell you secrets.
I think I'm going to have to pass up the Sigil of Dantalion as a focus. It seems like we're looking (a) at goetia and (b) at calling on demons, or what I've seen called ritual magic (in a non-gaming sense) as opposed to natural magic. On both counts it seems more like what the Nephandi would use in a standard mage campaign, or what corrupted mages would do, or what really dumb mages would do (really, dealing with the devil is like giving your personal information to a Nigerian bank fraud). The source material for the OoH doesn't make them out to be ALL demonolators; they may be stuffy and arrogant but many of them actually have good intentions.
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Old 09-24-2017, 01:23 PM   #13
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Default Re: foci in MtA

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I think I'm going to have to pass up the Sigil of Dantalion as a focus. It seems like we're looking (a) at goetia and (b) at calling on demons, or what I've seen called ritual magic (in a non-gaming sense) as opposed to natural magic. On both counts it seems more like what the Nephandi would use in a standard mage campaign, or what corrupted mages would do, or what really dumb mages would do (really, dealing with the devil is like giving your personal information to a Nigerian bank fraud). The source material for the OoH doesn't make them out to be ALL demonolators; they may be stuffy and arrogant but many of them actually have good intentions.
I am just a gamer who reads stuff, not an expert on occultism or anything, but if you eliminate decanic astrology, the seprioth, goetia and theurgy as belonging to other traditions what is left of Hermeticism other than alchemy (which itself includes aspects of these things)?Historical Hermeticism was syncretic.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: foci in MtA

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I am just a gamer who reads stuff, not an expert on occultism or anything, but if you eliminate decanic astrology, the seprioth, goetia and theurgy as belonging to other traditions what is left of Hermeticism other than alchemy (which itself includes aspects of these things)?Historical Hermeticism was syncretic.
Well, I had actually said that I thought maybe there was a case for allowing kabbalah, and I certainly thought decanic astrology could as legitimately be included as conventional astrology. The tradition of "natural magic" in the historical middle ages included planetary influences on metals. It's goetia I'm cautious about, and largely because it seems to have ties to summoning demons. I can work with other traditional arts such as astrology, numerology, alchemy, lapidary magic, sacred architecture, and so on.

For Mind, it occurs to me that a couple of suitable models might be, on one hand, oneiromancy, and on the other, physiognomy. There are also the canons of representing the human body in painting and sculpture.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: foci in MtA

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It's goetia I'm cautious about, and largely because it seems to have ties to summoning demons.
Also, the idea that demons have things to teach true mages, who understand how to use their will to change reality ... isn't something the MtA Order of Hermes are likely to be keen on.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:24 PM   #16
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It is just as possible that the spirits of goetia are internal to the mage. There's the thing in Thelema about hell and heaven being both inside the practicioner.
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: foci in MtA

The Hermetic I played based Loosely on Crowley used expression as his Focus for mind. So am I say a little bit of poetry or give you a line something to distract you to crack your defenses and let him slip in through them

Sorry about the weird capitalization. Not sure why my phone does that.

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Old 09-24-2017, 04:25 PM   #18
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The Hermetic I played based Loosely on Crowley used expression as his Focus for mind. So am I say a little bit of poetry or give you a line something to distract you to crack your defenses and let him slip in through them
Well, that would definitely be easy for me to roleplay, as I know a lot of English verse by heart (and bits of French, German, and Greek)—almost certainly more than any of my players knows. Though since I'm envisioning this character as quantitatively oriented it might be more fitting symbolically for him to use music than language as his expressive medium. It could be either a focus for his own concentration or a way of entraining the listener's brain.
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Old 09-24-2017, 05:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: foci in MtA

I don't know whether it would work for the specific character, but 1905 is about right for Freud starting to be taken seriously – still mostly in Vienna, but someone who took a particular interest in the field might have heard of him. That's the modern scientific theory of mind of that era.
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Old 09-24-2017, 06:17 PM   #20
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Well, that would definitely be easy for me to roleplay, as I know a lot of English verse by heart (and bits of French, German, and Greek)—almost certainly more than any of my players knows. Though since I'm envisioning this character as quantitatively oriented it might be more fitting symbolically for him to use music than language as his expressive medium. It could be either a focus for his own concentration or a way of entraining the listener's brain.
Perhaps some equation or numeric representation that he thinks is the key to the brain could be represented in a few notes they could hum?
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