Dungeon Fantasy Pantheons

[Kromm]

I'll just come out and say that I decided not to let people "save points" by merging clerical, druidic, and wizardly abilities for cheap. The three are affected by sanctity, natural purity, and mana, respectively. Each one you're able to use in a situation where one of those things is lacking is a nice backup for the ones you can't use. I don't see there being any fair way to give out discounts on that.

[pnewman]

I'm not sure that you need to build a Pantheon ahead of time for Dungeon Fantasy. You could get away with just coming up with Gods as they're needed. When the Cleric asks 'Who can I worhip?' your answer could be 'What kind of deity do you want to worship?'

With that said I'm going for a very basic Pantheon myself:

Mother Earth - a classic nature goddess for Barbarians, Druids, Scouts, farmers, and the like.

Grandfather Sun - a classic Appolonian solar deity for Clerics, Holy Warriors, Knights, nobility and the like.

Grandmother Chaos - a classic primal force of not necessarily evil chaos for Clerics, Swashbucklers, trickster Thieves, and the like.

Brother Moon - a classic trickster/magic/commerce God for Bards, greedy Thieves, Wizards, merchants, and the like.

For NPC's we have the (Sinister) Comet Cults - the major 'evil' forces for assassins, crazed cultists, evil Clerics, monsters and the like. With enough prayer and sacrifices to them a comet crashes into the planet.

For Martial Artists we'll skip Gods altogether.

Cosmologically Grandfather Sun is the Sun, Grandmother Chaos is a black hole [1], Mother Earth is your planet, Brother Sun is your planets moon, and the commet cults are the commets and other planets in the system.

[1] Yes, I know that having a black hole in a habitable system is astronomically dubious but this is magic, not science.

[vitruvian]

I don't see there being any fair way to give out discounts on that.

I would agree that it's not fair to get an extra discount for what are, effectively, separate powers with separate sources.

On the other hand, though, I could see some deities granting Magery with a Pact limitation, which would then fail to work in low mana *or* if you **** your god(s) off enough. That's not really what I would expect to see as a core concept in a DF version of multi-templating, however.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

On the other hand, though, I could see some deities granting Magery with a Pact limitation, which would then fail to work in low mana *or* if you **** your god(s) off enough. That's not really what I would expect to see as a core concept in a DF version of multi-templating, however.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Thaumatology will certainly expand on this idea, but it needs rather a few pages to do so . . . DF is meant to be "quick and dirty," mostly.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Thaumatology will certainly expand on this idea, but it needs rather a few pages to do so . . . DF is meant to be "quick and dirty," mostly.

I guess that Thaumatology ideas would be applicable to DF, if one wants to use them.

Originally Posted by pnewman

I'm not sure that you need to build a Pantheon ahead of time for Dungeon Fantasy.

I agree with that. Starting the campaign with a entire pantheon is like starting a campaign with the whole game world fleshet out. In most cases isn't neccessary.

But if you want a image of the whole... that is different.

Originally Posted by pnewman

Grandmother Chaos - a classic primal force of not necessarily evil chaos (...) Grandmother Chaos is a black hole [1] (...)

[1] Yes, I know that having a black hole in a habitable system is astronomically dubious but this is magic, not science.

Well, that Granmother Chaos idea seems to correspond with the Natura Naturans of the medieval Tomism. It is also the universal substance, the pure potentiality (hindu Shamkya's Prakrti), represented in cult as the Dark Goddess, the Middle Ages' Black Madonnas or Black Virgins, and even the popular Babylonic Tiamat.

Nature Naturans, in opinion of some (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Smith) scientists and philosophers, seems related with the subcorporeal domain of quantum physics, despite being an ontologic theme.

The Granmother Chaos is very well symbolized by the image from the astrophysic hypothesis of the Black Hole (ok, maybe a single, universal Black Hole here!), and it links very well with one of the Kabbalistic medieval cosmogonies: the Tsimtsum, the act of God retreating Himself from Himself leaving a vacuum hole of darkness, nothingness and pure potentiality (the hebrew tehôm).

Originally Posted by pnewman

Grandmother Chaos - a classic primal force of not necessarily evil chaos (...)

That is a good point.

Regarding that primal chaos (again, the Nature Naturans or pure potentiality) regarded as evil isn't but the human moral and humanistic viewpoint about an ontological and non-human universal principle. It is so correct as thinking about "God" as being "good".

But in the "ancient world", the moral and humanistic perspective wasn't predominant because the ritual and cosmic viewpoint.

However a GM can rule in her campaign perhaps the human moral viewpoint retains some degree of truth after all... I find this theme interesting, because chtonic deities as manifestations or worshipped personifications of the cosmologic prime chaos or pure potentiality is related with the chaotic, dark and evil gods motiff characteristic of Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy (and Horror).

From a complementary perspective, essence (gods of light, good, etc) and substance (gods of chaos, darkness, evil) aren't enemies, but each one fulfills its own cosmic function in the wholeness.

But from a partial, incomplete, non-complementary viewpoint ("the natural perception of most mortals beings"), yang (essence, light, olimpic, heaven) can be viewed sometimes as oppossed to yin (substance, darkness, chtonic, earth), resulting in seeming clash and enemity.

In other words: universal principles, being beyond all measure and rational knowledge, very well makes the human (or elven, whatever, except maybe those with Power Investiture or Blessed http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...25&postcount=8) perception of their mutual interactions indeed incomplete and partial, resulting in seeing or interpreting on them enemity instead complementarity:

Voila! Here is the Fantasy motiff of the huge divine wars of "alignments" (law-order-light vs. chaos-potentiality-darkness powers) in the world.

[Xenophile]

Originally Posted by pnewman

Grandmother Chaos - a classic primal force of not necessarily evil chaos for Clerics, Swashbucklers, trickster Thieves, and the like.

A godess of chaos, eh? Sounds strangely familiar, but I just can't figure out what the fnord it reminds me of...

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by pnewman

For Martial Artists we'll skip Gods altogether.

I forgot this point.

I mostly agree with you about skipping gods for martial artists, and that has its own background: the "typical" eastern martial artist doesn't portray entirely a religious viewpoint (faith, cult, worship, etc) but a metaphysical one related more with "trascendental knowledge" than with mere faith in different personal deities, spirits or other manifestations from the Absolute, as Taoism.

While a Taoist, in some context, speaks about the Non-Being (Tao Te King), a religious gnostic mentions the "name" of his Black Goddess ("Nigra sum sed formosa", Canticle of Canticles).

But this is open to some nuances: this distinction isn't always (and it doesn't need to be) total . The metaphysical and the religious different perspectives aim essentially at the same core but through different approaches. Some traditions sometimes are examples of mixing both of them: Buddhism is mostly a metaphysical path but at the same time is full of gods and demons.

So, while mostly agreeing with your point about martial artists, I think there can be some space for them having gods -being, from their typical metaphysical perspective, relative manifestations of the Tao, Buddha Nature or impersonal Absolute.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Xenophile

A godess of chaos, eh? Sounds strangely familiar, but I just can't figure out what the fnord it reminds me of...

If you're trying to hint that pnewman borrowed the idea, that's about as old news as the head god being a guy with a big beard in the sky. It's a very common trope, starting with Tiamat, Babylonian goddess of subterranean waters and primeval chaos, and continuing from there.

Of course, considering the only other alternatives are a god of chaos, or a gender-indeterminate deity of chaos, you have to expect it to come up fairly frequently.

[Xenophile]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you're trying to hint that pnewman borrowed the idea, that's about as old news as the head god being a guy with a big beard in the sky. It's a very common trope, starting with Tiamat, Babylonian goddess of subterranean waters and primeval chaos, and continuing from there.

Of course, considering the only other alternatives are a god of chaos, or a gender-indeterminate deity of chaos, you have to expect it to come up fairly frequently.

To be honest, I just take every opportunity I can get to make Discordian jokes.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Basically, of the pantheon of twelve, seven would do as well to have druids serve as their priests as clerics, or to have their priests 'multiclass' as both (since after all priests of Bromios will want to have Water to Wine and everybody wants healing spells).

I don't have that book, yet. Do they not allow clerics to get plant spells?