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Old 12-04-2018, 04:44 AM   #21
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I do not agree that ST:Mass ratio should give any particular bonus. My fiancée is one-third of my mass but one-half of my strength, it does not give her an advantage when we wrestle or anything. What bonuses do you think she should receive in contests against me?
Only if you're twice as strong as her any benefit she might enjoy for ST:Mass will be lost on the noise of that overall ST advantage.


This leaves aside 'half my strength when it come to wrestling' is a pretty nebulous measure in RL.


However in GURPS I think I like High ST to Mass ratios to only directly apply in very specific instances (e.g intrinsic encumbrance in TG, where it can be a benefit and a curse depending*)

Otherwise I think it's a good background justification for high DX & Mv stats (but not a requirement)


One thing I have toyed with is somehow take the intrinsic encumbrance concept from TG and applying it to some Acrobatics and Gymnastics skill use. But it's not really come up so I haven't got past the concept phase of doing this!


*and to go back to wrestling this is perhaps most important, you can make your body mass work for you, as well as have it work against you.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-04-2018 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 12-04-2018, 04:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
The question would be: Particular bonus to what?

Wrestling? I wouldn't expect a bonus either, if the task at hand is just a match of power vs power to force a takedown, etc.
I'd say it depends on the take down, to be honest this is one of the reasons why I tend to adjudicate what counts as a 'mass based move' (and thus potentially one that involves Intrinsic encumbrance) almost on a case by case basis when using TG.

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But how about acrobatics? If person A has a little less strength than person B, but a lot less mass to toss about, I would definitely expect person A to be better at acrobatics (all else being equal).
Yep, (sorry I didn't read your post when I wrote my last one!)
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:41 AM   #23
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
To use abstruse vocabulary that actually makes sense here:

intrinsic

extrinsic
That's certainly a way of using intrinsic and extrinsic that I don't think I ever encountered before.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
In the balance, then, ST-based skills don't make much sense because ST isn't made for rolling against. The rare exceptions in the rules are when ST meets ST in a Contest. So I suppose that a skill that only ever stands in for ST in such Contests could be ST-based, but I can't think of any such skills offhand. This is why most athletic skills are based on either DX or HT.
My mind immediately jumped to various grappling actions, many of which roll against ST, pit ST against DX, use ST-based rolls of DX-based skills etc.
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:31 AM   #24
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post

That's certainly a way of using intrinsic and extrinsic that I don't think I ever encountered before.
It's a usage that only chemists and physicists are likely to favor, and many prefer "intensive" and "extensive" for the same general notions.*

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post

My mind immediately jumped to various grappling actions, many of which roll against ST, pit ST against DX, use ST-based rolls of DX-based skills etc.
Agreed! Which is why I said:

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post

I suppose that a skill that only ever stands in for ST in such Contests could be ST-based
Plenty of skills have ST-based uses, but those aren't the only uses, so I'd hesitate to make them ST-based skills. In most cases, those skills have a significant "attacking" component (which is most definitely DX-based) or "fitness" component (which is most definitely HT-based), and it's best to use those to define their controlling attribute (DX or HT). For instance, the most common Wrestling rolls, and the most basic uses of the skill, are attacks to grab foes, so Wrestling is DX-based.

* For those with no idea of what in the Sam Hill we're discussing, this should suffice:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrin...sic_properties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intens...ive_properties
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
That's certainly a way of using intrinsic and extrinsic that I don't think I ever encountered before.
Kromm comes from a physics background, and this usage of the terms is jargon from that field.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:24 AM   #26
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
It's a usage that only chemists and physicists are likely to favor, and many prefer "intensive" and "extensive" for the same general notions.*
Yes, that's more the vocabulary I encountered, for things like voltage and charge, or pressure and volume. When I read "intrinsic" and "extrinsic" I thought of mass versus weight, which isn't exactly the same distinction.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:37 AM   #27
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
One thing I have toyed with is somehow take the intrinsic encumbrance concept from TG and applying it to some Acrobatics and Gymnastics skill use. But it's not really come up so I haven't got past the concept phase of doing this!
I would definitely take a look at tbone's GULLIVER rules, specifically the 3e ones: TG's Intrinsic Encumbrance was anticipated by tbone's Natural Encumbrance, and tbone carried the implications through much more thoroughly.
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Old 12-04-2018, 08:09 AM   #28
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
I would definitely take a look at tbone's GULLIVER rules, specifically the 3e ones: TG's Intrinsic Encumbrance was anticipated by tbone's Natural Encumbrance, and tbone carried the implications through much more thoroughly.
Cool, 3e is a bit before my GURPS time, but I'll take a look

cheers

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Old 12-04-2018, 05:47 PM   #29
Vaevictis Asmadi
 
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

The only skills that I would see being based on ST are things like Forced Entry and Lumberjack, where you're directly applying your strength to destroy an inanimate object that can't dodge. In fact I thought Lumberjack was ST-based in RAW, and I've never understood what DX has to do with Forced Entry (or why it has no default).

Lifting is a RAW skill I think, but it's probably the skill of keeping a safe posture so you don't throw out your back. It's based on HT, which would make sense for the skill about posture.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: ST-Based Skills

Forced Entry is about knowing where and how to hit the door; it's basically a non-combat version of Brawling. And, like Brawling, its ST component takes the form of a damage bonus.
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