Can Proteus Virus do gengineering that is described in

[AlexanderHowl]

Viruses can cause somatic changes, it is just that the vast majority of them are going to cause cancer and/or cellular death because they are random. Something like 60% of the genome involves the mechanisms for keeping cells alive, another 20% for being an animal, another 10% for being a mammal, another 5% for being a primate, etc., until you get to the 1% that defines home sapiens sapiens, so any change outside of that 1% would make a human alien to itself. Target viruses could change that part of the DNA without causes cancer and/or cellular death if it also first reprogrammed the immune system to accept the changes as well as the originals.

Now, what would that loom like? Well, an individual undergoing such a transformation would likely suffer symptoms similar to the flu for a few weeks as every cell in their body is transformed by the viruses. New proteins would be produced, structures and tissues would be changed, and the individual would become someone...else. It is not superscience though.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Now, what would that loom like? Well, an individual undergoing such a transformation would likely suffer symptoms similar to the flu for a few weeks as every cell in their body is transformed by the viruses. New proteins would be produced, structures and tissues would be changed, and the individual would become someone...else. It is not superscience though.

Can you cite a biologist who has said it's possible, preferably in a refereed journal? Because otherwise I'm going to say this sounds handwavy.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Can you cite a biologist who has said it's possible, preferably in a refereed journal? Because otherwise I'm going to say this sounds handwavy.

Probably depends a lot on how we're defining 'it'.

Because there's lots of people working on post-natal gene therapies and the like who do expect what they're doing to be workable.

But there probably aren't many who are going to go on to say (especially on the record in a sober professional forum) "and we could totally have somebody grow an exoskeleton".


I'd say that (A) you should not count on your treatment being able to change every cell and (B) morphological changes by way of adjusting developmental genetics almost certainly won't work in adults anything like how they would if introduced at an embryonic stage.

What you could theoretically do with advanced wet nanotechnology helpers and far-over-the-horizon biological design principles is only marginally related to the expertise of a modern biologist. With staged genetic rewrites and a completely original designed re-development trajectory, pretty radical things seem plausible. But asking a modern biologist to detail that would make about as much sense as asking Ada Lovelace to develop an operating system for quantum computers.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What you could theoretically do with advanced wet nanotechnology helpers and far-over-the-horizon biological design principles is only marginally related to the expertise of a modern biologist. With staged genetic rewrites and a completely original designed re-development trajectory, pretty radical things seem plausible. But asking a modern biologist to detail that would make about as much sense as asking Ada Lovelace to develop an operating system for quantum computers.

Yes, and I think that classifies it as superscience: Stuff we do not know how to imagine how to do and do not know is possible.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, and I think that classifies it as superscience: Stuff we do not know how to imagine how to do and do not know is possible.

Depends what you mean by 'how to imagine'. I certainly would say I know how to imagine how to do it.

Like, I can detail a loose sequence of events that I think is physically and biologically plausible and would have the desired result.

But it's basically entirely made up of black boxes that fall firmly into 'nobody has even started learning how to engineer this'. Those boxes can be understood as such or filled in with what amounts to placeholder technobabble. Even the parts I'd be detailing would almost certainly be at least somewhat inaccurate to the hypothetical actual technology.

However, that can't make it superscience, because that's broadly true of all future technologies. If I could tell you in working detail how to build any TL10 device, I'd pretty much have to be a TL10 person...and one with a remarkably deep (if potentially narrow and idiosyncratic) set of skills.

[AlexanderHowl]

Superscience violates our current understanding of biology, chemistry, physics, etc. A FTL drive is superscience because it violates our understanding of physics (though there are a few designs that actually might not...). A fusion rocket does not because, while we have no idea of how to create the required fusion reactions, the engineering is actually quite straightforward (if wickedly difficult). Genetic engineering on the scale of metamorphic viruses are not necessarily superscience (using a metamorphic virus to transform humans into blue whales would be because they would not have the required mass but turning them into 6" tall flying humanoids would not be as long as there is a lot of goo remaining).

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

But it's basically entirely made up of black boxes that fall firmly into 'nobody has even started learning how to engineer this'. Those boxes can be understood as such or filled in with what amounts to placeholder technobabble.

Eh, metamorphosis virus effects are potentially non-technologies - after all a fungus that eats you and uses your mass to make fungus spores has basically carried out a species modification operation, turning "you" from a human into a fungus. The cinematic part is probably the parts where there is functional mental continuity through the more radical changes, instead of say a total erasure of your brain, or at least a need to spend a couple years in rehab relearning how to move your body.

[smurf]

In our old GURPS games we had been using the Proteus Virus back in 1989.

This was a full species mod. Telepathic humanoids could catch this virus and it would resize them between 5'9" to 6'6" and lose a point of ST. Gain a lot of move, have longer legs and grow some extra bones for a tail and scaly skin.

The way we figured it was a delay to create a "Typhoid Mary" for about 3 weeks before the symptoms to show but the carrier was a "Plague bearer" from the beginning and the virus would only attack Telepathic humanoids.

There was a bit of back story on how this was developed. The original was more aggressive but since it has spread the virus is less contagious (or rather the unaffected have a higher resistance to the virus). Of course this can means the slow spread could have the time to infect a wider area.

[AlexanderHowl]

Right now, they are using CRSPR technology to treat existing people with sickle cell anemia, to change the genetic expression of platelet production so they produce normal platelets (though it is not germline engineering, so it will not benefit any potential children). There are similar proposals for a number of simple genetic diseases, though sickle cell anemia seems to be the easiest to potentially treat. I know of people with relatives with cystic fibrosis who are looking into participating in potential trials for similar procedures that are currently undergoing FDA review (the medical ethics are wickedly complicated, especially since the majority of the test subjects are children).

[Pectus Solentis]

In p.BT181 there says

Genetic Surgery may be performed on a fetus, child, or ADULT to repair defective genes or insert new ones.

But does it mean the gengeneering in GURPS Bio-Tech Chapter 2 is able to already-born creatures? There's no descriptions about that.