Basic Set Unarmed Combat boxing questions

[Anaximander]

Originally Posted by lexington

I can't find in anywhere in Basic Set, which is odd.

Nor could I. except for that you could perform two separate parries at no penalty and the wording of off-hand weapon training letting you buy off the penalty for "one specific Melee Weapon skill".

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Anaximander

Indeed it is, sir. I think this is a house rule that could be great success, if a bit complex in terms of keeping track of step use.

Yes... Maybe... Since most maneuvers just allow to do one step, it is quite easy to do without memory effort.

And it does correspond to what I experiment in karate. When you step in one direction while attacking, it is very hard to step in another direction in the same second… Just try it at home. A one yard step forward and a one yard step backward… Almost impossible to do both in one second (one turn)!

Having said that, I believe more and more than my interpretation of the rules is not the good one. Thanks for this discussion!

Hoping it was not too boring for Joppeknol…

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Gollum

But note than when you all-out attack, you can only move forward (up to half your move), which prevent you to retreat in most of cases. When you move and attack, you cannot any more retreat. A possible interpretation: you have use all your move and then cannot anymore move.

All Out Attack doesn't allow any defenses whatsoever. You can't retreat because you can't defend. (Note aside that 'retreat' can be twisted to forward movement, with MA's Slip option. See p124)

Move and Attack doesn't require you to use all your potential movement any more than Move does. So that interpretation doesn't stand up.

Originally Posted by Anaximander

Nor could I. except for that you could perform two separate parries at no penalty and the wording of off-hand weapon training letting you buy off the penalty for "one specific Melee Weapon skill".

I would have said it was clear from the basic set, but thus far I haven't been able to find where it's documented.

[PK]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

1) Is retreating dodge always possible, provided there is space behind you?

Almost always possible. It's important to remember that you cannot retreat after a Move and Attack, and that you can only retreat once per turn against a single foe -- your defense bonus only applies against that foe!

It would lead to boxers stepping to and fro during defense and attack, which seems a bit silly.

Silly? You've just described a modern boxing match to a tee. In fact, the arguably greatest advancement in boxing technique was the addition of footwork -- nimble fighters who could dance back and forth all began defeating those who stood and pummeled.

Do people rule that you can only retreat when you haven't spend a step in your turn? Why do or why don't?

Some do, sure. I don't, because a good fighter should be able to remain fluid and mobile in a fight, and retreating simulates that. Also, it makes a fight versus one person vastly different than a fight against two or more. When you suddenly can't retreat against every attack, and you're used to relying on that bonus, running away becomes an attractive option.

2) Shouldn't boxing remove the -4 penalty for off-hand? It would seem more realistic to me, and it would make boxing more reasonable against brawling.

Actually, all unarmed skills ignore the "off-hand penalty." This is not made very clear in the Basic Set, unfortunately. Martial Arts clarified it.

3) A left and a right first are two weapons, so doing you can strike twice with a -4 penalty (provided previous point or if your have karate skill). Rapid strike penalty -6 can be halved to 3 by spending 1 fp.

So, striking twice with the same hand would be less at a penalty than striking with the left and right hand. Is not including a similar 'extra effort' option on dual weapon attacks an oversight, or does it have a reason?

Yes, because DWAs can be bought off as a technique in many games. So typically, any fighter who uses them frequently will do so. That said, it'd be perfectly reasonable for you to allow Flurry of Blows to interact with DWA, bringing the penalty to -2.

4) Do I read the rules on B420 correctly if I assume it is possible that a boxing match ends in 1 second with one of the fighter having lost only 1 hp? (but taking 1 hp on the face and rolling -5 on his HT roll to avoid knockdown).

No, that's not quite correct. A 1-hp wound to the face requires a HT roll, not a HT-5 roll. The -5 is for a major wound to the face -- e.g., a HP 10 man must take 6+ points of injury.

So an average HT 10 man who takes 1 point of injury to the face must roll HT. He has a 50% chance of being fine, a 45% chance of being stunned, and a 5% chance of passing out. In other words, that's enough injury to cause what doctors would call a concussion. If the same man took 6 points of damage to the face, he'd almost certainly be stunned and would have a 50% chance of passing out -- and in the real world, an injury on that scale would probably disfigure him in some way and put him in the hospital for days.

[PK]

Originally Posted by lexington

I can't find in anywhere in Basic Set, which is odd.

You won't find it stated explicitly, though a careful reading reveals that it was the base assumption while many rules were written. This is an oversight that was corrected in GURPS Martial Arts.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

All Out Attack doesn't allow any defenses whatsoever. You can't retreat because you can't defend. (Note aside that 'retreat' can be twisted to forward movement, with MA's Slip option. See p124)

Move and Attack doesn't require you to use all your potential movement any more than Move does. So that interpretation doesn't stand up.

You're right… And you definitely convinced me that my interpretation wasn't so good.

Thank you for that. My players will be happy to have the possibility to step and retreat during the same turn! Even if it is not very realistic in one second. But no matter. GURPS is not always realistic (and does not pretend to be, even if it is one of the most realistic rpg).

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I would have said it was clear from the basic set, but thus far I haven't been able to find where it's documented.

It is clear for Karate. It is explicitly written in the description of this skill:“(at no -4 fir the off-hand)”. But it is not for Boxing and Brawling…

Having said that, the rule about handedness say “This [the -4] does not apply to things you normally do with your “off” hand, like using a shield”. Bowers and brawlers normally use their off-hand to punch or parry.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

You won't find it stated explicitly...

Except in the Karate skill description. GURPS considers that Karatekas are better warriors than boxers or brawlers. Yes! Yes! Yes!

I'm kidding of course... This is absolutely wrong (both for GURPS and in reality)... Boxers and brawlers can be as dangerous as karatekas, as it is explained by all true karate masters, including mine.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Gollum

There is a karate technique, named "morote tsuki" which allows to strike with two hands exactly at the same time. It is quite easy to do after a parry, and hard to defend against... It can be used in a modern Call of Cthulhu adventure. But I never see any boxer use it. It is very specific to some karate and kungfu schools and, of course, it was not known by westerners during the roaring twenties (except people with an asiatic origin, of course). But, since you are playing in a modern campaign, no problem for your player characters...

In Hsing-I (and previously in Wing Chun) I've learned many techniques that equate to a punch and a kick simultaneously, I believe this is more common than two punches or two kicks.

I'd like to point out for the OP, since no one else has made it explicit, that improving the Dual Weapon Attack technique is generally considered cinematic by RAW (although attempting it at default is realistic), as is Flurry of Blows.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I'd like to point out for the OP, since no one else has made it explicit, that improving the Dual Weapon Attack technique is generally considered cinematic by RAW (although attempting it at default is realistic), as is Flurry of Blows.

True enough, but then you can always just increase your base skill by 4 and improve your DWA default and your Rapid Strike and your Deceptive Attack and, well, everything else. It may cost you 16 CP instead of 5, but it'll be far more generally useful.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

True enough, but then you can always just increase your base skill by 4 and improve your DWA default and your Rapid Strike and your Deceptive Attack and, well, everything else. It may cost you 16 CP instead of 5, but it'll be far more generally useful.

That's comparing apples and orchards. You could buy off the DWA default, buy two more levels of base skill, and still have only spent 13 points.