Extra Attack (Multi-Strike) + Sorcery?

[Pseudonym]

Long story short: If you have Extra-Attack with Multistrike, and a Sorcery Missile spell, are you able to use it twice in a single attack?

The way I read it, I feel like there is nothing wrong with that because Extra-Attack, refers to be using on innate attacks like dragon fire breath in the basic set; the way someone else reads it, you should take higher rate of fire on the sorcery to accomplish it. Is this something that comes down to GM fiat?

Personally speaking, as a GM, it would be difficult for me to adjudicate the combo as fair anyway, but I am also a stickler for rules, so I'm curious.

[weby]

If you have extra attack multistrike you are able to use Innate Attack for all of those as each is a separate attack action. If you bought up ROF you could do more hits with each attack you do.

[Pseudonym]

Originally Posted by weby

If you have extra attack multistrike you are able to use Innate Attack for all of those as each is a separate attack action. If you bought up ROF you could do more hits with each attack you do.

This is exactly what I thought. I was just wondering if the rate of fire thing is a rule that it is required for innate attacks and somehow I missed it or what. To me, high rate of fire means an attack has a chance of hitting multiple times if you have a high degree of success, so I would interpret a missile spell with a high rate of fire (and probably nearly no recoil?) to have the opportunity to hit rate of fire X extra attack times. (And I guess, if you have an insanely high rate of fire, you also have a better skill roll... though it probably isn't likely [or even possible?] that you will hit with every missile if you have three digit rate of fire.)

[weby]

Originally Posted by Pseudonym

This is exactly what I thought. I was just wondering if the rate of fire thing is a rule that it is required for innate attacks and somehow I missed it or what. To me, high rate of fire means an attack has a chance of hitting multiple times if you have a high degree of success, so I would interpret a missile spell with a high rate of fire (and probably nearly no recoil?) to have the opportunity to hit rate of fire X extra attack times. (And I guess, if you have an insanely high rate of fire, you also have a better skill roll... though it probably isn't likely [or even possible?] that you will hit with every missile if you have three digit rate of fire.)

Minimum recoil in GURPS is 1. So at high ROF you hit one extra time for each +1 you make the attack roll by. High ROF does indeed give a bonus to hit. See Rapid Fire in B373.

[PK]

Extra Attack does nothing to improve an attack's RoF. Since most Missile spells are RoF 1, you'll need to upgrade that (with GM permission) before you can use Extra Attack in this manner. If you do that, then sure, go wild. (However, the GM is free to rule differently on this depending on his interpretation of the attack, per this FAQ entry.)

However, note that a Jet spell is treated as a melee attack and thus can benefit from Extra Attack (Multistrike). Of course, if you wanted to use Extra Attack without Multistrike, you'd have to upgrade the Jet spell with Dual (+10%) so it appeared in more than just your one hand.

[weby]

Originally Posted by PK

Extra Attack does nothing to improve an attack's RoF. Since most Missile spells are RoF 1, you'll need to upgrade that (with GM permission) before you can use Extra Attack in this manner. If you do that, then sure, go wild. (However, the GM is free to rule differently on this depending on his interpretation of the attack, per this FAQ entry.)

So a gun bought as a gadget would work differently than a regular gun and you would need to buy up the ROF of such to get multiple shots?

As the description of Rapid fire says:

Originally Posted by B373

Some missile weapons have RoF 2
or more. This means they can fire
multiple shots per attack, up to a max-
imum equal to their RoF.

And powers under multi strike says:

Originally Posted by Powers 49

You can use your best attack
multiple times.

That would indicate at the rof is not per turn, instead it is per attack and that multi strike allows you multiple attacks.

So a 2d semiautomatic pistol bought as power would need to be: +70% for rof 6 instead of +50% for rof 3 if you intend to use extra attack(multi-strike)?

Where is that written? Or am I just reading the rapid fire rules first paragraph wrong?

[PK]

Originally Posted by weby

Where is that written?

There. (I linked to the FAQ entry above.) As explained there, it's up to the GM whether an attack's RoF is a fixed maximum per second, or something that could conceivably be increased with additional exertion or speed of motion.

[weby]

Originally Posted by PK

There. (I linked to the FAQ entry above.) As explained there, it's up to the GM whether an attack's RoF is a fixed maximum per second, or something that could conceivably be increased with additional exertion or speed of motion.

And yet you wrote:

Originally Posted by PK

Extra Attack does nothing to improve an attack's RoF. Since most Missile spells are RoF 1, you'll need to upgrade that (with GM permission) before you can use Extra Attack in this manner. (However, the GM is free to rule differently on this depending on his interpretation of the attack, per this FAQ entry.)

Emphasis mine. So it should be read as: "You may need"?

Of course it is always up to the GM in the end so it may not be a big deal, just that the emphasis in the way you expressed in your first post seemed very strong and the FAQ is neutral on the issue, thus my question.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by weby

Of course it is always up to the GM in the end so it may not be a big deal, just that the emphasis in the way you expressed in your first post seemed very strong and the FAQ is neutral on the issue, thus my question.

In my opinion the FAQ is not neutral, it's leaning to "No, except with these caveats:" and lists a few (GM Fiat, mechanical exceptions, a technique). Considering it starts with "possibly" and ends with "Check out High-Tech for a Technique that allows one to do it without buying Extra Attack."

High Tech and Gun-Fu go into this in depth and neither make it something just anyone can do (easily, they can with a penalty), they require either Cinematic Advantages* and/or Techniques to exceed standard RoF per turn (or penalties in the case of Fast-Firing and Fanning).



* Granted Extra Attack is a Cinematic Advantage, but it's not one either treatment allows for exceeding RoF alone (Use Fast Firing or Fanning to do this).

[weby]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

In my opinion the FAQ is not neutral, it's leaning to "No, except with these caveats:" and lists a few (GM Fiat, mechanical exceptions, a technique). Considering it starts with "possibly" and ends with "Check out High-Tech for a Technique that allows one to do it without buying Extra Attack."

High Tech and Gun-Fu go into this in depth and neither make it something just anyone can do (easily, they can with a penalty), they require either Cinematic Advantages* and/or Techniques to exceed standard RoF per turn (or penalties in the case of Fast-Firing and Fanning).

* Granted Extra Attack is a Cinematic Advantage, but it's not one either treatment allows for exceeding RoF alone (Use Fast Firing or Fanning to do this).

The ufaq entry mostly talks about mechanical limits and not human limits.

It also specifically mentions Extra attack and giving the HT method as option to extra attack.

Innate attacks do not have any inherent mechanical limits only limits are thus the limits given by the rules.

Thus my question of +50% vs +70% for making a rof 3 weapon as innate attack, or should it be +100%/+150% as most semi automatic fit in the 8-30 shots/second limit. (Typical values being 800-1000 rpm mechanical rate).

My reading of rapid attack and extra attack (multi-strike) combined(the two sections I quoted in the previous post about "per attack" and repeating attacks) is that the ROF limit you buy is for one attack not one turn, yet P.K. reads it totally different.

Basically:
My reading: rof=shots/attack unless there is something else limiting the total maximum. Thus rof 3 and 2 attacks with a typical semiautomatic pistol would be 6 shots total(as mechanical limit is 10+).
P.K.'s reading: rof=shots/turn. Thus rof 3 and 2 attacks with a typical semiautomatic pistol would be 3 shots total. (As I understand it)