Typical ST for a war bow?

[safisher]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

So there is plenty of evidence for gaming purposes to say that some soldiers can draw two or three times the draw weight of a typical hunter without being bigger and stronger than other picked soldiers. Whether that picked soldier has ST 12 or ST 15 is definitely up to the GM.

Elephant hunters in Africa used very heavy bows, too. I've seen them described as 130 pounds or more (though I think poison was used as well). Some Native American bows reached 70-80 pounds, which was within the range of some of the lighter draw bows on the Mary Rose. So it might be said that the "average" range of a war or heavy hunting bow is 80-120 lbs. A light bow might be under 50 pounds, and the very heaviest were above 130 lbs., with the heaviest record setting bows reaching 200 pounds. How this relates to ST in GURPS is really up to the GM, and the use of various benchmarks and measurements to justify a conclusion is subjective.

[DouglasCole]

Quite simply, my research did not find too many bows of draw strength in excess of around 200 pounds. Setting a maximum human strength bow at strength 20, and looking at basic lift, that provided for the usual factor of four difference in draw strength between ST 10 and ST 20. That meant if I set a ST 20 boat to 200 pounds a ST 10 bow was 50 pounds, which is a typical bow for Hunter.

Basically I wanted to use the entire range of human ST. And doing so spanned the range of bows nicely.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Quite simply, my research did not find too many bows of draw strength in excess of around 200 pounds. Setting a maximum human strength bow at strength 20, and looking at basic lift, that provided for the usual factor of four difference in draw strength between ST 10 and ST 20. That meant if I set a ST 20 boat to 200 pounds a ST 10 bow was 50 pounds, which is a typical bow for Hunter.

I think that's reasonable, and demonstrates the range of bows and human ST quite well. Suppose, instead, your design goal was to narrowly compress the range of bow using ST to a usable range of 10-14. How would you then model it? That is, assume 40-50 poundish draw is ST10 and 200 poundish draw is ST14.

[Kalzazz]

I have considered making Strongbow be 'fast progression trained ST for bows'

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I have considered making Strongbow be 'fast progression trained ST for bows'

That takes whats there and extends it, yah.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by safisher

I think that's reasonable, and demonstrates the range of bows and human ST quite well. Suppose, instead, your design goal was to narrowly compress the range of bow using ST to a usable range of 10-14. How would you then model it? That is, assume 40-50 poundish draw is ST10 and 200 poundish draw is ST14.

Well, you have 2x in basic lift there. You might need to go nonlinear. BL gets you one factor of 2 and skill at DX+4 (say) gets another.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by safisher

I think that's reasonable, and demonstrates the range of bows and human ST quite well. Suppose, instead, your design goal was to narrowly compress the range of bow using ST to a usable range of 10-14. How would you then model it?

I think RAW actually does work here (though maybe not elegantly). The Mary Rose bows are ST 15-19. If we assume that these were Henry's elite archers and that they would be willing to take skill penalties (and remember these were for massed barrages, not target shooting; skill isn't that important) and some extra FP loss at the end of battle then:

• With ST 12, Bow at DX +2, and Strongbow, they can shoot the bows with -1 to -5 to skill and 1-5 extra FP at the end of battle.
• Very Fit cuts the FP costs in half.
• Every point of ST or Arm ST (and from the skeletons at least some of these guys should have 1-3 points of Arm ST) reduces those penalties by 1.

Elite Tudor Longbowman [75]
Attributes: ST 12 [20] DX 11 [20] IQ 10 [0] HT 11 [10]
Secondary Characteristics: Per 12 [10]
Advantages: Longbowman 2* [10]; Millitary Rank 0 [0]; Strongbow [1]; and Style Familiarity (Foot Archery) [1] • 20 points chosen from ST+1 [10]; DX+1 [20]; Per +1 to +2 [5/level]; Acute Vision 1 to 2 [2/level]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Fearlessness [2/level]; Longbowman 3 to 4 [5/level]; Outdoorsman 1 to 2 [10/level], Military Rank 1 [5]; Naval Training [1]; Rapid Healing [5]; Resistant to Disease +3 [3]; Special Exercises (Arm ST) 1 to 3 [1/level] and one-arm Arm ST 1 to 3 [3/level]; Stalker 1 to 4 [5/level]; Sure Footed (Slippery) [1]; Wealth (Comfortable) [10]; or upgrade Fit [5] to Very Fit [15] for 10 points.
Disadvantages: Duty (England; 12 or less; Extremely Hazardous) [-15] • -20 points chosen from Alcoholism [-15]; Bad Temper [10*]; Bully [10*]; Callous [-5]; Code of Honor (Soldier's) [-10]; Flashbacks (Mild or Severe) [-5 or -10]; Intolerance (Frenchmen) [-5], (Spaniards) [-5], Catholics [-5], or (Total) -10; Nightmares [-5*]; Sense of Duty (King's Bowmen) [-5] or (England) [-10]; or Wounded [-5].
Skills: Armory (Missile Weapons) (A) [1] IQ +1- 11; Bow (A) [4] DX+3 -14; Bow Sport (A) [1] DX+1 -12; Farming (A) IQ+2 [4] -12; Fast Draw (Arrow) (E) [1] DX+2 -13; Hiking (A) [1] HT+1 -12; Shortsword (A) DX [2] -11; and Soldier (A) [2] IQ-10 • One of Animal Handling (any) (A) IQ [2] - 10; Observation (A) Per [2] -12; Camouflage (A) IQ [2] -10; Stealth (A) DX [2] -11; or Tracking (A) Per [2] -12.

*Adds to Bow, Bow Sport, Fast-Draw (Arrow), Hiking, Armory (Missile Weapons); reaction bonus to allied troops.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by safisher

How this relates to ST in GURPS is really up to the GM, and the use of various benchmarks and measurements to justify a conclusion is subjective.

I don't think so; the idea that weight of bow drawn should be proportional to Basic Lift seems as clear as anything in GURPS' model can be. There is certainly room to fiddle with what kind of bow a ST 10 Bow 10 character can use without penalty, and how much ST should come from a stat and how much from skill or perks or advantages, but designers have much more to go on than when they handle say seduction or invention. Its certainly a matter for judgement, but some choices are clearly more consistent and realistic than others (unlike say the rules for designing space opera spaceships).

If you have a reputable source estimating the draw weight of a Mary Rose bow under 100 lbs I would be grateful for the citation. Keep in mind that the authors have retracted their early estimates which were lower than the ones they now favour. Its still just a model of bows on one ship on one day, but as data for low-tech weapons goes its pretty solid.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I don't think so; the idea that weight of bow drawn should be proportional to Basic Lift seems as clear as anything in GURPS' model can be. There is certainly room to fiddle with what kind of bow a ST 10 Bow 10 character can use without penalty, and how much ST should come from a stat and how much from skill or perks or advantages, but designers have much more to go on than when they handle say seduction or invention. Its certainly a matter for judgement, but some choices are clearly more consistent and realistic than others (unlike say the rules for designing space opera spaceships).

If you have a reputable source estimating the draw weight of a Mary Rose bow under 100 lbs I would be grateful for the citation. Keep in mind that the authors have retracted their early estimates which were lower than the ones they now favour. Its still just a model of bows on one ship on one day, but as data for low-tech weapons goes its pretty solid.

The template I posted above can make an archer that can use the heaviest bows on the Merry Rose at only -2 to skill (with the +4 for an area target; that gives a net skill of 16) and if he takes two quirks and uses those points (with the 8 points he has left from Advantages) to upgrade Fit to Very Fit only loses one extra FP at the end of battle; as a 75 point character. I don't think it's unreasonable for Henry VIII to have fielded a company of 75 point guys at all.

If you let Strongbow give Fast Trained ST past DX+2, then he can shoot that 185# bow at only -1 to skill and no extra FP.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The template I posted above can make an archer that can use the heaviest bows on the Merry Rose at only -2 to skill (with the +4 for an area target; that gives a net skill of 16) and if he takes five quirks and uses those points (and five of the 8 points he has left from Advantages) to upgrade Fit to Very Fit only loses one extra FP at the end of battle; as a 75 point character. I don't think it's unreasonable for Henry VIII to have fielded a company of 75 point guys at all.

If you let Strongbow give Fast Trained ST past DX+2, then he can shoot that 185# bow at only -1 to skill and no extra FP.

Is there something in the Deadly Spring that allows you to use bows over your ST at a penalty? Using just the non-pyramid stuff, that's not possible.