Different Uses for Shield

[Koningkrush]

In GURPS, I want to make using a Shield be more useful and interesting in ways other than just being an Easy defensive skill to replace Parry and Dodge.

First off, I would make Shield an Average skill just for balance reasons due to the following:

Would it work to have the option to default Shield to Perception rather than Dexterity to place the shield in between you and an attack, rather than deflect it (turning your shield into cover DR rather than avoiding the attack)?

The reason for this would be that it would allow someone to use their Shield (Perception) to block bullets, arrows, missile attacks, beam weapons, etc. To balance this, the Size and Speed/Range penalty that the ranged opponent suffers also applies to the defender's Block roll.

I was also thinking of allowing a Strength based block roll to absorb a melee blow with cover DR rather than deflecting the attack.

Some modifiers that I wouldn't be sure about would be for the size of the shield and the weight of the weapon for Perception blocking and Strength blocking respectively.
If the shield was large enough, such as a riot shield, it would pretty much be mobile cover without a defense roll required, and if it was a Buckler there would be a sizable penalty.
For Strength blocking, the size and weight of a weapon would probably best be represented by the already high damage rather than a modifier to the Block, but I was thinking of adding a +1 to +2 bonus to DR if the Shield skill is known at high enough level (similar to increased damage from Karate).

All of this allows for a much more versatile combatant with a shield, allowing him to trade off-hand offense for the option to parry and deflect with his shield against heavy attacks, block and absorb lighter attacks, and use his shield as cover against ranged attacks.

[Tomsdad]

I think ultimately there is a significant DX component to moving your Shield into place fast enough and in the right way to deflect / absorb an attack.

For me perception plays it's part in recognising there's a missile attacking coming in ala "dodge this" by Douglas Cole in Pyramid 3/57

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Koningkrush

In GURPS, I want to make using a Shield be more useful and interesting in ways other than just being an Easy defensive skill to replace Parry and Dodge.

First off, I would make Shield an Average skill just for balance reasons due to the following:

As will be made clearer below, there’s no real reason to change Shield from Easy to Average.

Would it work to have the option to default Shield to Perception rather than Dexterity to place the shield in between you and an attack, rather than deflect it (turning your shield into cover DR rather than avoiding the attack)?

You can float the Shield skill to Per rather than DX if you want to but, if you mean is it reasonable given the meaning GURPS attaches to those terms then, no, it doesn’t work. What you seem to want to do is tie the shield skill to hand-eye coordination thereby representing the character seeing where the blow is going to arrive and then getting the shield in position to intercept the blow. In GURPS that sort of hand-eye coordination is one of the things DX represents. Per is a poorer fit since it is about seeing and interpreting things but implies nothing about the character’s ability to physically react. In this instance it would be yes, you can see where the blow is coming from but your ability to do anything useful with that knowledge at a physical level is up in the air.

The other reason it doesn’t work is that you’re not actually doing anything differently from the RAW (rules as written). Back in GURPS 3e shields had a PD (passive defense) factor as well as a DR factor and successful use of the PD element was usually taken to represent deflecting the blow with the shield (i.e., the weapon skittered off the surface of the shield to miss you completely). Even in 3e though, shields (and cloaks) were for blocking, not parrying, and part of what Blocking involved, particularly for smaller shields, was exactly the sort of “trying to get my shield in position to do me some good” that you want.

The reason for this would be that it would allow someone to use their Shield (Perception) to block bullets, arrows, missile attacks, beam weapons, etc. To balance this, the Size and Speed/Range penalty that the ranged opponent suffers also applies to the defender's Block roll.

By RAW, you cannot Block bullets or beam weapons because they come in too quickly to be stopped by Blocking. Floating from DX to Per doesn’t help because it’s still a case of:
GM: He fired his pistol from fifty yards away.
Player: My character is going to―
GM: The bullet just hit/missed you.
Bullets and beam weapons really do move too fast for you to do anything useful between “he fired” and “the bullet/beam arrived” even in one second. If you want to houserule that bullets and beams can be blocked, go right on and do so, it’s your game. Just be aware that events in your game may no longer bear a close resemblance to what would reasonably happen in a more realistic setting.

I was also thinking of allowing a Strength based block roll to absorb a melee blow with cover DR rather than deflecting the attack.

Essentially, this is floating the Shield skill to ST to represent the character bracing himself to take the blow on his shield, which is perfectly fine under RAW. It doesn’t require a new mechanism to do this.

Some modifiers that I wouldn't be sure about would be for the size of the shield and the weight of the weapon for Perception blocking and Strength blocking respectively.
If the shield was large enough, such as a riot shield, it would pretty much be mobile cover without a defense roll required, and if it was a Buckler there would be a sizable penalty.
For Strength blocking, the size and weight of a weapon would probably best be represented by the already high damage rather than a modifier to the Block, but I was thinking of adding a +1 to +2 bonus to DR if the Shield skill is known at high enough level (similar to increased damage from Karate).

Having used both the large and small riot shields in the past, I can’t say that it’s appropriate to let them be used without a defense roll. Even the large riot shield doesn’t provide coverage that is that complete and it’s possible for a shield to be pulled out of position, making you vulnerable. Tower shields and the horseman’s kite shield offer a good deal of “cover” but like the large riot shield don’t provide complete coverage and therefore shouldn’t operate with no defense roll. The only shield that really comes close to what you’re envisioning is the pavis used by some medieval foot archers, which really was more cover than shield and not terribly mobile.

All of this allows for a much more versatile combatant with a shield, allowing him to trade off-hand offense for the option to parry and deflect with his shield against heavy attacks, block and absorb lighter attacks, and use his shield as cover against ranged attacks.

While versatility is always nice, most of what you want is already covered by RAW, except the Shield Parry, at least in the Basic Set. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that Shield Parries are covered in another GURPS publication. In fact, I’m pretty sure they are. I just don’t have a citation for you.

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by Koningkrush

I was also thinking of allowing a Strength based block roll to absorb a melee blow with cover DR rather than deflecting the attack.

Worth noting that ST doesn't work quite the same as other Attributes. Instead of rolling against ST, I suggest a roll against DX (applying the ST in a directed manner) or HT (Not getting strained or hurt when applying your ST, or toughing through something), with a penalty or potential bonus if you have to little or excess ST for what the task at hand it.
Bracing yourself with your shield and absorbing the attack would fall under a HT roll.

I also have a houserule involving shields and cloaks that I haven't been able to test yet. The basic idea is that it removes Blocks, and instead you can apply the DB bonus to any Parry if the attack was one that you would be able to block under the normal rules. If you did, then either if you succeeded by a small enough margin, or if the target then makes an attack roll capped at 9 (not sure which one I would use yet), they get to attack the shield or cloak.
Shield still exists as a skill for shield bashes and you can still use it to parry with a shield, though parrying using the shield skill always has to apply the Shield's DB, since you simply can't parry without using it.

[Anaraxes]

From the OP, it seems like the main dissatisfaction is not being able to use the shield's cover DR instead of having it block.

The existing rules on B407 already allow a shield to be used as cover. Most shields cover few hit locations, of course. (A shield big enough to cover everything would be a pavise.) But it's existing RAW to try to hide behind your shield and hope an attack hits it.

The Overpenetration rules on B379 starts by noting that "Some attacks are powerful enough to pass right through cover, a shield, or a victim, and damage someone on the other side." (It's even the pull quote on that page.) So even a successful Block doesn't mean you're immune to being damaged, if the attack is powerful enough that it's worth doing a calculation to see what penetrates the cover DR of the shield. The Block roll means you got the shield in the way, but the bullet (etc) might make it through anyway. As the text says, it's usually not worth the bother, at least for ST-based melee weapons.

"Damage to Shields" on B484 expressly covers penetration of shields after a successful Block. Note that the last paragraph is about hurting the shield-bearer, not just the shield itself.

For a ST-based shield move, remember that a shield is also an offensive weapon. You could use your Shield for a Beat as well as a blow or defense.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Koningkrush

First off, I would make Shield an Average skill just for balance reasons due to the following:

Leave it Easy, you'll see why in a moment.

Originally Posted by Koningkrush

Would it work to have the option to default Shield to Perception rather than Dexterity to place the shield in between you and an attack, rather than deflect it (turning your shield into cover DR rather than avoiding the attack)?

The reason for this would be that it would allow someone to use their Shield (Perception) to block bullets, arrows, missile attacks, beam weapons, etc. To balance this, the Size and Speed/Range penalty that the ranged opponent suffers also applies to the defender's Block roll.

As others have noted, the hand/eye coordination you're mapping to Per here actually maps to GURPS DX, so you want to leave it as DX-based (I should note one of the Aiming variant rules I suggested on these forums made the same error, so you're in good company).

That said, as you can Dodge lasers, it should be possible to Block them using the same method - putting the shield where the shooter is aiming (with Dodge, you're actually getting out of the way of where the shooter is aiming, not dodging the bullet/laser/whatever). I could see Per being used for determining this. It's going to be tough, as you have to notice fairly minute changes to figure out exactly where on your body the target is aiming. Apply the target's Size and Range modifiers, as usual, to Per-based Shield skill, then halve it (don't add 3 - the above has a built-in -6 penalty for observing minute changes, which negates the normal +3). This is the cap to your Block skill, before accounting for DB, Combat Reflexes, Improved Defenses, and so forth.

If you'd like to actually Block the projectile, rather than the shooter's aim, see Dodge This (Pyramid #3/57), which has some rules for that (and Per plays an important role). Use whichever of the two options gives you the greater chance for success. So, in that article a rifle bullet can be Blocked at -6, provided you succeed at the Per roll to see the bullet. Let's say you have DX 12, Per 14, and Shield at DX+10 (22 DX, 24 Per). Against an SM +0 rifleman who is 20 yards away, your cap to Block is 9 (24-6, divided by 2). This is better than Block-6 (which is 8), so use 6. If the rifleman were instead 100 yards away, your cap to Block would be 7 (24-10, divided by 2). As Block-6 (8) is better than this, roll against Per (with modifiers at outlined in the article); on a Success you can react to the bullet itself, rolling against 8, while on a Failure you can only track the shooter's aim, rolling against 7.

Originally Posted by Koningkrush

I was also thinking of allowing a Strength based block roll to absorb a melee blow with cover DR rather than deflecting the attack.

So long as the attack is something you could lift with one hand (weight doesn't exceed BL), you can Parry/Block it - this is a big part of how Strength matters here. Anything lighter, you're going to be able to stop the attack (although a strong character can follow up with a Beat to knock your shield aside).

Originally Posted by Koningkrush

... but I was thinking of adding a +1 to +2 bonus to DR if the Shield skill is known at high enough level (similar to increased damage from Karate).

Increasing a shield's DR a bit due to high skill actually isn't a bad idea. One thing that makes shields a bit more effective than armor is that the arm is able to function like a spring, absorbing some of the power of the blow, and a more skilled warrior can probably do this more effectively. Note this probably doesn't work against most projectiles, like bullets and arrows and the like (the blunt force impact of these isn't all that substantial, so your spring-arm trick doesn't work so well), although thrown weapons, boulders, etc are probably fine.


EDIT: Also, for deciding if a shield will get in the way without the character necessarily doing anything, see these two posts.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Varyon

That said, as you can Dodge lasers, it should be possible to Block them using the same method.

"The same method" in this case would consist of constantly moving your shield around randomly in hopes of intercepting a random blaster bolt.

Dodging ranged weapons isn't a reactive event where you're literally stepping out of the way of a bullet -- not even by anticipating a trigger pull and leaping aside just before the shot. It's a much more abstracted representation of making you more difficult to hit being you're presumed to always moving all the time in combat. (You don't just stand there, stiff as a miniature, until it's your turn, and then freeze in place again while everyone else acts.)

You might well not find that rationale convincing, or find the fact that even that sort of Dodge is still classed as an "Active Defense", and wish for something with a more passive name. But neither of those makes for a good excuse for extending that concept to other Active Defenses.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

"The same method" in this case would consist of constantly moving your shield around randomly in hopes of intercepting a random blaster bolt.

Default GURPS Dodge rules are consistent with moving out of the way of a shooter's aim, not with evasive movement. Evasive movement would realistically be something you'd need to declare on your turn, and it would reduce your Move and also penalize your own actions (similarly to Move and Attack, although not quite as harsh). Most tellingly, evasive movement should make you harder for everyone to hit, yet Dodge doesn't work at all against a shooter you're unaware of.

Yes, actually getting out of the way of a shooter's aim is at least somewhat cinematic, but I think fits well into the "heroic realism" default of GURPS. Personally, any time I visualize GURPS Dodging against firearms, I always think of the Elites from Halo: Combat Evolved - if they're aware of you, then when you get the crosshairs of your sniper rifle on them, they'll crabstep left or right to break your aim. I see default GURPS Dodge as working the same way.

[Dustin]

Here's a Kromm post on using shields as cover that might be of use.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...62&postcount=9

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Default GURPS Evasive movement would realistically be something you'd need to declare on your turn

Not if it's the default behavior -- which is probably is when you know you're in combat. You're describing something where you drop everything to try and dodge about. I'm describing the effect of your normal combat motion, which includes circling, footwork forward and back, ducking out of the way of blows unrelated to the attack that you're Dodging, any opportunistic shelter you might have (including your opponent's bodies) that's still not stopping and hiding behind them, and so on. People moving the "average" or "normal" way in combat are harder to hit than people not in combat -- without them taking their entire Maneuver to become even more difficult to hit. You might well add an All-out Evade Maneuver if you like to become even harder to hit (assuming that's somehow different from All-out Defense). But you don't drop back to the out-of-combat "no defense allowed" state because you're not taking All-out Evade each turn. There's an intermediate state of behavior that deserves some chance to defend, as you're harder to hit than a paper target on a shooting range.

I'm not saying reusing Dodge is the perfect mechanism to model this. But I am saying it's far less silly an explanation than claiming that you're actually observing individual barrel direction of aim and motion of trigger fingers from 50 yards away and swerving at the last second in specific response to those individual threats. And it's not obvious to me that inventing a third mechanic just to handle this case would produce outcomes much different than just dual-purposing the Dodge mechanic. Simplicity and consistency have their advantages, too.