Light sources and vision question

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by bocephus

You dont get to ignore it, when it was directly in response to what you wrote. And was 100% on point based on that example. Since drift can occur, drift must occur hence there must be a penalty before too much drift can enter the system. The assumption being you cant hit a target far away without just being crazy lucky and aiming for half an hour

A bit of exaggeration, I think.

Take an archer with ST 10 and Striking ST 1 for the bow, and with skill-12 (recommended skill for an entry level professional in GURPS). Give him a longbow. Its half damage range is 15 x ST = 165 yards (he won't normally shoot at targets more distant than that, as the arrow is partly spent). The longbow has Acc +3.

He times his first shot for the foe being at 165 yards, for a -12 speed/range penalty. He takes two seconds to nock and draw, and then three more seconds to aim to get the max bonus. So he's at skill 12 -12 (range) +5 (total Acc) = 5, or 10/216 chance of hitting.

Is this terrible? Well, no. This isn't Legolas or Robin Hood or Oliver Queen. This is a light infantryman good enough to serve in a massed fire unit. Out of a hundred archers, five will hit a foe.

In the next five seconds, the foe can advance to 135 yards (we assume they're sprinting to cross the killing ground as soon as possible). Now the penalty is -11, for effective skill 6, or a 20/216 chance to hit. About 9 more foes are hit. The same happens again at 105 yards.

The next time, the foe are at 75 yards, for -10, and a 35/216 chance to hit. That hits 17 foes.

When the foes reach 45 yards, the penalty is -8, the effective skill is 9, and 81/216 are hit, or 38 foes. And when they reach 15 yards, the penalty is down to -5 and the effective skill is 12, so 62 foes are hit. By this time 140 arrows have found targets, out of 600 fired. Any one shot isn't all that deadly, but all together they create a killing field. And none of them has aimed for even half a minute.

[seycyrus]

I think you are grossly exaggerating your skill with the bow.

I'd like to see you turn facing away from the range, have your friends place 3 targets at random places at random distances from 30-75 yards. Then I want you to turn and shoot 1 arrow at each target in 6 seconds total.

You think you'd be hitting 50%? I don't think so.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by bocephus

I do know that {b] I personally [/b] am utterly and completely at odds with the idea that anything past 2yds incurs a range penalty.

GURPS combat happens on a one-second time scale. Most people do not, on a one-second time scale, shoot and dodge or shoot and think. They shoot, stop, look around, think, aim shoot, etc. When I teach shooting classes, I tend to see people who make a All-Out Attacks and forego their dodge. They totally forget to move, look around, etc. while they are shooting -- they are too focused on the aiming part. This is a major part of teaching combatives and tactical shooting is to get the shooter to think about something besides the basic mechanics of shooting. Most police shootings have mostly missed at 3-5 yards range. How can anyone possibly miss that close? Well, it is the range (most police shooting courses stop training past 25 yards, which is a ludicrously short range), the darkness, the adrenaline, and a lot of other things that make them miss. This is why "I'm a great archer" is a bad reality test.
In Army infantry school, I was taught to hit moving targets with open sites at 100+ yards. I was in a foxhole braced position on a modern range, with lanes clearly marked, distances known, the targets easy to ID and generally in the best conditions possible. I scored 42/50 on my ARM qual shoot, which was very good. Did any infantry unit in Vietnam from squad to battalion level ever have such a high rate of hits? Not even close, but most of them scored way better on the KD ranges stateside. So the issue is how do you get combat hit rates in an action RPG? You either subtract from "range fire" hit rates or you add to combat hit rate while on the range. Simple as.

If you have GURPS High-Tech or GURPS Tactical Shooting you will find lots of rules to supplement Basic Set (mostly written by folks with experience with guns) and with the intent of squaring all these circles. There's been a lot of thought put into it. There is just no need to go through all of this all over again on the forums -- so go read these books, and make sure you've read the rules and clearly understand them. We will be glad to help if you need help understanding these rules, that's one thing.

But look, please be considerate. Saying "all of this is dumb" is not going to impress anyone here. You aren't the only one to ever think about these things. You aren't the only service member here on the forums either. This is a game and its one we play to have fun. It requires tradeoffs and simplifications. Let's try to keep things civil, so we can all have fun.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

I think you are grossly exaggerating your skill with the bow.

I'd like to see you turn facing away from the range, have your friends place 3 targets at random places at random distances from 30-75 yards. Then I want you to turn and shoot 1 arrow at each target in 6 seconds total.

You think you'd be hitting 50%? I don't think so.

This is purely intended to get someone upset. Please quote where I or anyone in this thread talked about anything other than a single bow shot. Im not even sure there was anything but one passing reference to multiple shots with a gun and that wasn't me.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by bocephus

This is purely intended to get someone upset. Please quote where I or anyone in this thread talked about anything other than a single bow shot. Im not even sure there was anything but one passing reference to multiple shots with a gun and that wasn't me.

the point being made (and it's been made by several posters now), is that GURPS combat rules assumes a combat situation and all that entails. Not a day at the range where you are firing in a very different context.
With this in mind and as has been pointed out there are several positive mods that can apply when using the GURPS combat rules and using them in not in combat range situation.

Stuff like no danger, known ranges to target etc.

Then there's the concept of aiming as defined in the rules, again as pointed out GURPS combat runs on 1 second intervals, so aiming can be multi turn activity. So unless you are saying you do your target shooting without (in GURPS terms) aiming then by GURPS you are aiming and that makes hitting easier.

Now you also seem have saying that you have chose to not pay attention to the Acc / aiming rules for bows? You are of course free to do that, but your choice to do that will make it harder to hit things.

If you really don't like the range mods can I suggest the truncated and simplified range mods rules in the GURPS:Action! book. I can't remember it exactly but it basically break ranges down into much broader range bands and give them each a set negative mods. (I honestly can't remember what 100 yards would be in these rules)

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

If you really don't like the range mods can I suggest the truncated and simplified range mods rules in the GURPS:Action! book. I can't remember it exactly but it basically break ranges down into much broader range bands and give them each a set negative mods. (I honestly can't remember what 100 yards would be in these rules)

The Range Bands in Action 1 Action 2 don't change the SSR penalties at all, they just break ranges down into bands for ease of use with the chase rules.

However, for my home game I just take 'the average' and lean one way or the other for ease of use... so the Medium Range band (21 to 100 yds) runs from -7 to -10, for my games if the quarry if closer to 21 I apply -7, if they're closer to the 100 I apply -10. If I'm giving exact ranges (or using minis) they get the standard SSR penalties because that's what the Action 1 Range Bands use.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by safisher

But look, please be considerate. Saying "all of this is dumb" is not going to impress anyone here. You aren't the only one to ever think about these things. You aren't the only service member here on the forums either. This is a game and its one we play to have fun. It requires tradeoffs and simplifications. Let's try to keep things civil, so we can all have fun.

I resent that you characterize me having said anyone here is "dumb". I have been very specifically civil (with CARE) go back and read my posts not one has been altered since before you posted. I allow that there might be some text that could be taken in that context and that is my failure if it is so communicated. Quote it to me and I will clarify and/or apologize. I have said plainly I disagree with some assertions, and then stated why. I did call the mythical being Tom an idiot, but as I created him and the situation I feel Im allowed that one. If Tom feels insulted he is free to demand and receive an apology for the personal attack. This is civil disagreement and of all the things said in this thread, the above quote is the first time that I feel anyone has personally attacked anyone here. Im not here to impress you or anyone else, I sought clarification and got it, and then the rabbit hole of the range table... which was not even in my scope of conversation when I started this thread but has had productive value for me in the context of running GURPS so I continued to engage.

Your post the first time I actually felt singled out to be attacked during the time time I have spent on the boards, which is not a lot, but it has been interesting. Even as I took personal affront to one part of your post, another part might be the key to the whole of my issue regarding Range Skill and Range modifiers.

Several people have spent a lot of their time trying to explain the points of contention. And while I dont think I have arrived at a place of concurrence they have been more than civil in posting their disagreement and given a LOT of time running around the bushes with me. Bill (whswhs), especially deserves honorable mention for really mucking in with a lot of time, and effort and more than a few others have contributed to trying and these efforts were all appreciated and not overlooked, and never did I feel that someone getting personal.

Originally Posted by safisher

If you have GURPS High-Tech or GURPS Tactical Shooting you will find lots of rules to supplement Basic Set (mostly written by folks with experience with guns) and with the intent of squaring all these circles. There's been a lot of thought put into it. There is just no need to go through all of this all over again on the forums -- so go read these books, and make sure you've read the rules and clearly understand them. We will be glad to help if you need help understanding these rules, that's one thing.

I do not have these, I don't have access to browse them, I don't desire running higher tech settings so they are not something I would purchase. I own all the Low-Tech, Magic, Basic, and some assorted others that touch my settings more deeply. If the thought is there, I'm open to the clarification, but I'm not buying a book I don't need to get it. And to be completely frank how would I know they were there, hence the forum.

Originally Posted by safisher

GURPS combat happens on a one-second time scale. Most people do not, on a one-second time scale, shoot and dodge or shoot and think. They shoot, stop, look around, think, aim shoot, etc. When I teach shooting classes, I tend to see people who make a All-Out Attacks and forego their dodge. They totally forget to move, look around, etc. while they are shooting -- they are too focused on the aiming part. This is a major part of teaching combatives and tactical shooting is to get the shooter to think about something besides the basic mechanics of shooting. Most police shootings have mostly missed at 3-5 yards range. How can anyone possibly miss that close? Well, it is the range (most police shooting courses stop training past 25 yards, which is a ludicrously short range), the darkness, the adrenaline, and a lot of other things that make them miss. This is why "I'm a great archer" is a bad reality test.
In Army infantry school, I was taught to hit moving targets with open sites at 100+ yards. I was in a foxhole braced position on a modern range, with lanes clearly marked, distances known, the targets easy to ID and generally in the best conditions possible. I scored 42/50 on my ARM qual shoot, which was very good. Did any infantry unit in Vietnam from squad to battalion level ever have such a high rate of hits? Not even close, but most of them scored way better on the KD ranges stateside. So the issue is how do you get combat hit rates in an action RPG? You either subtract from "range fire" hit rates or you add to combat hit rate while on the range. Simple as.

Now Im going to shift gears entirely and say... with regard to this range thing you might be onto something but not the range table. Im thinking its the Skill bit that has this me all twisted up. Its possible that my bar of "You are no longer using the default of the skill, but now have 1 point in the skill might be unrealistically high" or from my side I think you might have set it unrealistically to low for 100hrs of training and 100hrs of field work (the generally referred to 200hrs per skill point) but then the system makes much more sense as written.



You teach shooting classes as well, we have some common ground there. Let me ask you this, and it is predicated on the idea that you teach beginner classes as well as what ever advance classes.

A person comes to you and wants to learn to use a pistol for defense. He lives alone on a farm and is getting worried about the zombies or what ever. He has no prior experience using pistols (or any other firearm) , he watches some TV so he's seen cop shows and stuff. Yes a shotgun is simpler but he wants something he can carry easily, and its his money. This guy is the quintessential blank canvas, doesn't really have even "default -4 access".

I would say one hour class and one hour range time he should be allowed to use default skill Dex-4... agreed? He will have achieved "He knows where the dangerous end is, and how to make it go bang" He probably still shakes when he loads a magazine (if you even allow him to have multiple shots at this point). He probably handles the pistol like its a snake thats gonna bite any second.

Now what can he do at the point where you would say "he's no longer using the default dex-4, he now has achieved 1 point in Pistol". What can he do, in general terms, how long did it take for him to get there (Im not a huge fan of the 200 hours per skill point thing for this very reason)?

I assume safe handling, learning the 3 rules (or which ever technique you use for responsible control) and learning to apply them on the range as well as the class room.

Can he draw and fire? Smooth not "fast", at what range, at what accuracy? Retention drills? Melee drills? Active ranges? Shoot house? Simmunition force on force exercises? Would you even train him to try a "head shot" at level 1? Group maneuvers? group stuff doesn't make sense in the scenario but I think you should see where Im going with this...

Just so I have a base idea what skill level would you attribute to these? Simple general terms is all Im asking.

I get the impression that Skill level1 for a GURPS is you can draw and holster on a range and hit the thoracic triangle 50% of the time at 10m maybe 15m. Something in the area of 20 hours of instruction and 20ish additional hours of range time?

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

the point being made (and it's been made by several posters now), is that GURPS combat rules assumes a combat situation and all that entails. Not a day at the range where you are firing in a very different context.

This is a rough one to quote. But my reply that you quoted about the post being "just to get someone upset" was not referring to the thread but the below person/post.

I think you are grossly exaggerating your skill with the bow.

I'd like to see you turn facing away from the range, have your friends place 3 targets at random places at random distances from 30-75 yards. Then I want you to turn and shoot 1 arrow at each target in 6 seconds total.

You think you'd be hitting 50%? I don't think so.

First off I am not grossly exaggerating MY ability to hit a target at 30m or 50m with a bow compound, recurve or long your choice. But never once did I claim anything as silly as what that person claims I did this was pure trolling. This discussion has never been about an archer shooting more than one arrow. My response about being trolled was to that person and that post alone. Nothing more, please dont quote that as a response to the rest of the thread which has been very civil and at worst honest disagreement, and very useful in many more ways than the original thread topic.


If anything its become about a "medieval Archer" with a regular bow (acc2), standing alert, with an arrow on the string knowing an engagement is imminent at "roughly 30yds" should the range table penalty for distance apply to that shot the way its written. I have said that I find the negative modifier applied to the distance is exaggerated / onerous / unrealistic (all words I have actually used) vs the skill required to use the bow and that having "Skill" in bow should negate some of that range penalty. I think we are close to resolving this as an unclear scale of "Skill" and the oft quoted 200hrs per skill point.

That other stuff about turning around and shooting 3 targets in 6 seconds is ludicrous and it was personal trolling to claim I said that, as I never did and never claimed such a feat. I wouldnt even allow that in my GURPS setting before this thread.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by bocephus

This is a rough one to quote. But my reply that you quoted about the post being "just to get someone upset" was not referring to the thread but the below person/post.

The point seycyrus was making was in reference to those points though.

You want to concentrate on what you see as defamation of your bow skills that's cool, but the underlying points remain

for instance:

Originally Posted by bocephus

If anything its become about a "medieval Archer" with a regular bow (acc2), standing alert, with an arrow on the string knowing an engagement is imminent at "roughly 30yds" should the range table penalty for distance apply to that shot the way its written. I have said that I find the negative modifier applied to the distance is exaggerated / onerous / unrealistic (all words I have actually used) vs the skill required to use the bow and that having "Skill" in bow should negate some of that range penalty. ..

so 30 yards is -7

so if we just treat this an instant attack without aiming then yes it will take a skill of 17 to hit a man-sized target if no other mods apply 50% of the time.

Not great

but if they take 1 second to aim it drops to a skill 15 and 50%

if they take 3 seconds in total it will be skill 13 and 50% (of course that's assuming you have a bow you can keep drawn for that length of time!)


if you add in the various non combat / on the range context mods you talking another +3 or +4 on that skill and so on


If you make your attack an AoA determined (i.e you don't intend to actively defend yourself while doing this) that's another +1 mod to skill


if you want to boost aiming and AoA mods even further there's good article making aiming a more variable thing in pyramid

Originally Posted by bocephus

That other stuff about turning around and shooting 3 targets in 6 seconds is ludicrous and it was personal trolling to claim I said that, as I never did and never claimed such a feat. I wouldnt even allow that in my GURPS setting before this thread.

Right but that's what not taking aim actions and not relying on non combat bonuses like known distances positive mods would allow you to do (or rather in order to do that you have to not take aim actions etc). I.e. if you think that would be a much harder feat than yes that's the point the system is making when it includes aiming and other bonuses

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by bocephus

...
Now Im going to shift gears entirely and say... with regard to this range thing you might be onto something but not the range table. Im thinking its the Skill bit that has this me all twisted up. ...

The thing is giving 'on the range / non combat bonuses' is one way how the system allows you to compensate for distance to target penalties (and of course other penalties)

If you don't like that as a concept you could always change it in your games to be "on the range context / noncombat bonuses" don't add to skill but directly remove penalties to hit (although you have to allow for them to more than compensate for the penalties or you basic chance will be capped at you basic skill)