Light sources and vision question

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

The Range Bands in Action 1 don't change the SSR penalties at all, they just break ranges down into bands for ease of use with the chase rules.

Ah Ok right, I couldn't remember if the net effect of that is some ranges within wide range bands would have less penalties to hit at?

[Tomsdad]

Also don't get too tied up with the 200/100 hours per CP rule, it's a very general, abstract and broad rule to allow for "off screen" improvement over time. So if you know you can impart the basics of bowmanship to in GURPS terms Skill +0 or even Skill+1 or Skill +2 in less than 100 hours supervised training then use that real world direct experience in your games.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by bocephus

If anything its become about a "medieval Archer" with a regular bow (acc2), standing alert, with an arrow on the string knowing an engagement is imminent at "roughly 30yds" should the range table penalty for distance apply to that shot the way its written. I have said that I find the negative modifier applied to the distance is exaggerated / onerous / unrealistic (all words I have actually used) vs the skill required to use the bow and that having "Skill" in bow should negate some of that range penalty.

I can see this playing out more than one way. If the skill-12 archer is covering a broad area at 30-yards, then they will need to spend a few seconds aiming once they see a target. With three seconds of aiming and an AoA, they're at skill-10. (If the target was charging toward them, then they may be at skill-11 now because the target has moved into the 20-yard range.)

On the other hand, if they are covering a single hex, which commonly happens in my games when someone is covering a doorway, window, or "if someone comes out from behind the tree," then they can aim at the hex (see Opportunity Fire, B390), which means they can fire the moment someone appears, interrupting their foe's action. In this case, your skill-12 archer would have a 50/50 chance of a hit at the first instant that a target presents itself.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by Dalin

On the other hand, if they are covering a single hex, which commonly happens in my games when someone is covering a doorway, window, or "if someone comes out from behind the tree," then they can aim at the hex (see Opportunity Fire, B390), which means they can fire the moment someone appears, interrupting their foe's action. In this case, your skill-12 archer would have a 50/50 chance of a hit at the first instant that a target presents itself.

ok so "aiming is implied" just for the sake of clarity I think based or RAW that would mean the bow has been drawn and held, or would it be enough to be focused on your spot ready to draw and release?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by bocephus

ok so "aiming is implied" just for the sake of clarity I think based or RAW that would mean the bow has been drawn and held, or would it be enough to be focused on your spot ready to draw and release?

Well honestly I think that's going to come down to how much attention you are giving to the reality of bows in your campaign.

To me the rules for opportunity fire would need a drawn bow to work, but the practical reality of keeping a bow drawn* isn't really addressed in Characters & Campaigns (it is explicitly addressed in a very good article on Bows in pyramid if you are interested).


Ultimately if you want people to be able to do this without worrying about it, go for it!

Just obviously Ygritte is the strongest character in GoT




*obviously what bow you are talking about matters and options possible with more modern bows change this. But yeah at earlier TL's this is an advantage Crossbows have (if you going to make this drawn and held distinction)

[safisher]

Originally Posted by bocephus

I resent that you characterize me having said anyone here is "dumb".

In talking about the range chart you said: "I found that chart, and I have to say thats just wrong, from any point of "realism"."

My point wasn't to scold you, but just to remind you that the above kind of statements are not constructive. We writers, we are necessarily sensitive to people saying "that's just wrong."

And again, my apologies. My point wasn't to scold you.

I do not have these, I don't have access to browse them, I don't desire running higher tech settings so they are not something I would purchase.

That may be, but they DO expand on the exact questions you are asking. The place to get more information exists.

If the thought is there, I'm open to the clarification, but I'm not buying a book I don't need to get it.

If the book provides answers to your questions (and especially your range instructor questions below) then, yes maybe you do need it.

And to be completely frank how would I know they were there, hence the forum.

To be completely frank, why do you expect authors who write the books to give you information for free from books they've already written?

the system makes much more sense as written.

If you understand the rules, the system does make sense. We are in agreement.

You teach shooting classes as well, we have some common ground there. Let me ask you this, and it is predicated on the idea that you teach beginner classes as well as what ever advance classes.

I have taught law enforcement classes, ranging from baton, pepper spray, shotgun and handgun, but also SHARP and defensive tactics. I still occasionally teach private gun classes. None of these are particularly advanced classes, IMO. But the bigger thing is, I've played, ran, or written for GURPS for 30 years!

I would say one hour class and one hour range time he should be allowed to use default skill Dex-4... agreed?

Most people today have seen a gun, even if just on TV. They have a default. The no default thing is truly for someone or something completely alien. An 8 hour day is how one gains a familiarity -- say going from one caliber or weapon type to another. You want to be familiar with a 9mm Browning HP, while your Guns (Pistol) skill is for .22 ,32, .38, and .44 Revolvers. That's a familiarity. That's a day of class and range work. Nowhere close to an hour each, and I think that's about right.

Now what can he do at the point where you would say "he's no longer using the default dex-4, he now has achieved 1 point in Pistol".

That's laid out in Tactical Shooting, to wit, the skill let's you ID gun sounds (that's an AK!), mount a scope, choose ammo, judge a gun's relative value, pick the right gun for the job, etc. It's the IQ side of the skill, not just the DX side.

Can he draw and fire? Smooth not "fast", at what range, at what accuracy? Retention drills? Melee drills? Active ranges? Shoot house? Simmunition force on force exercises? Would you even train him to try a "head shot" at level 1?

The basic police firearms course of training is two weeks intensive. That's the gold standard for 1 point, IMO.

Group maneuvers? group stuff doesn't make sense in the scenario but I think you should see where Im going with this...

That's Tactics skill, which is unlikely to develop for some time. The trainee needs to really know gun handling a safety inside and out before I'd ever do a hto range with them. In the civilian world, that's a long time of once a week, lunch break shooting.

I get the impression that Skill level1 for a GURPS is you can draw and holster on a range and hit the thoracic triangle 50% of the time at 10m maybe 15m. Something in the area of 20 hours of instruction and 20ish additional hours of range time?

A trainee out of Basic has 1 point in Guns. A cop after his academy training has 1 point in Guns. After that, both trainees are going to need a lot more training to really be proficient. They are newbies. But seriously, we lay all this out in Tactical Shooting. I'm sure you will enjoy the book.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ah Ok right, I couldn't remember if the net effect of that is some ranges within wide range bands would have less penalties to hit at?

The 'Range Bands' in Action 2 are literally only to break down the various ranges into 5 distinct groups for chase purposes, they aren't supposed to be used with combat. You still use the SSR for all range penalty purposes.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Just obviously Ygritte is the strongest character in GoT

Ok, that was funny. And yeah, hard to do

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by safisher

In talking about the range chart you said: "I found that chart, and I have to say thats just wrong, from any point of "realism"."

My point wasn't to scold you, but just to remind you that the above kind of statements are not constructive. We writers, we are necessarily sensitive to people saying "that's just wrong."

And again, my apologies. My point wasn't to scold you.

But I see your point and agree I could have used more restraint there, I did not consider that I would be interacting with the writers.

I'll see your apology and return you one of my own. I do apologize for that outburst.

Originally Posted by safisher

I
A trainee out of Basic has 1 point in Guns. A cop after his academy training has 1 point in Guns. After that, both trainees are going to need a lot more training to really be proficient. They are newbies. But seriously, we lay all this out in Tactical Shooting. I'm sure you will enjoy the book.

1) Thank you for the clarification and I think that the bulk of the issue lays with what I was considering to be a 1 point skill. It has a lot to do with that 200hrs concept that I have heard about for years and took it more to heart than I should have. As well as the idea that 1 point in a skill isn't proficiency, even though the book really leads you to think it is in b171 Base skill vs effective skill.
--> I have been using proficiency as the defining characteristic of having 1 point in a skill. That and using the success percentage that accompanied the skill level to approximate that proficiency in action.
-------->IE My "1 point in bow archers" were being expected to have a 50% chance to hit in combat at least half way to max effective range. I thought thats what learning a skill meant in GURPS,

2) Its interesting that my setting for "default" was more strict than yours. My idea was more like mandatory pre-school than "Ya you've seen this before on TV". If I adopt this your going to make one of my players very happy.

3) I may have mislead you with the engagement about guns. That was so you and I could talk about a subject with a common real life frame of reference, and I could see how you apply it to GURPS.

4) I dont mean to demean your work here, but I have enough interaction with guns in real life that I don't want it in my RolePlay as well, I dont play first person shooters either for similar reasons. Its not you, its me. I dont even play with gun powder in the bulk of my settings, Im 98% medieval pure / mid-fantasy / high fantasy and a little bit of horror GM, and I haven't been interested in gun settings as a player either, Well other than a run with a western thing but that was because of a girl not because I wanted to play that genre and thats when 2ed was new (so its been a while).

4) I dont have a lot of access to Books in English where I am, Im not sitting in a house in the states where Im just being to lazy to go the the game store and this is the most interaction that I have had with others that do RPGs let alone play GURPS in years (ouside of my players who have little experiece before and that D&D)
Its just not practical for me to import or store, a bunch of books wont use on the off chance that they will have a section with some overlap into what I use. Like the light thing, I cant figure out why that isnt addressed in the Basic. Having the mechanics for how the light from a torch fades at X range, vs a candle or flashlight seems to me like a common to all genres item, but its apparently in one of the High-Tech books that I knew nothing about till I was told here.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by bocephus

But I see your point and agree I could have used more restraint there, I did not consider that I would be interacting with the writers.

One of the cool things about this forum is the number of authors on it so your getting clarification and input from many of the people who wrote or edited the material. Though of course they cant and shouldn't post too much from their books as sales is what keeps GURPS alive and active.

Originally Posted by bocephus

1) --> I have been using proficiency as the defining characteristic of having 1 point in a skill. That and using the success percentage that accompanied the skill level to approximate that proficiency in action.
-------->IE My "1 point in bow archers" were being expected to have a 50% chance to hit in combat at least half way to max effective range. I thought thats what learning a skill meant in GURPS,

I consider 1 point in a skill to mean actual training and practice. It may not be RAW but I always considered attribute level to be proficient.

Originally Posted by bocephus

2) Its interesting that my setting for "default" was more strict than yours. My idea was more like mandatory pre-school than "Ya you've seen this before on TV". If I adopt this your going to make one of my players very happy.

Not just TV but casual culture, Driving has a default but isnt taught in school until around 16 (In the USA) and I would argue (Kromm has also) that most drivers just use the default instead of enough training to represent a point.

I would say Americans tend to have default guns skill from culture and tv exposure. Other nations where guns are less available may have no default.
For example in my tour in Holland the Dutch security police were banned from having handguns because of their careless treatment of them. In a 2 year tour they were taken away before I got there, given after enough time had passed then taken away again (someone shot out a window with an "unloaded" gun).

Originally Posted by bocephus

Like the light thing, I cant figure out why that isnt addressed in the Basic. Having the mechanics for how the light from a torch fades at X range, vs a candle or flashlight seems to me like a common to all genres item, but its apparently in one of the High-Tech books that I knew nothing about till I was told here.

Space/Word count. Basic covers a lot of material but additional books get to cover more material and clarify or even update some rules with new optional ones. Trouble is its trying to cover more genres than typical books for other systems.
The lighting rules for example are included in...
High Tech: Electricity and Electronics to give more detail with equipment.
Powers: Enhanced Senses because its a book on senses.
Underground Adventures could also have had them but thats an earlier book and it just has this bit "Some of these illuminate a
radius; others project a beam. Either form eliminates or
reduces Vision penalties in the area it illuminates, but leaves
the explorer blinded to anything outside that region. Treat the
light as in plain sight to distant observers who have a clear view
of it: +10 to Vision rolls to see it (p. B358)."

That is three different books that address the lighting issue from different perspectives and for different purposes.

The forums as you have seen are a good source for finding out whats in a book or what books might be relevant to a question or topic.