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Old 08-22-2018, 04:05 PM   #31
Tenex
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: New Unarmed Combat Talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
The Unarmed combat specialist doesn't have these options available so the extra levels and abilities are necessary and justified, in my opinion.
That's a design flaw.

Pick another iconic class (Ranger, Thief, etc.) and you can build it in TFT without needing 5 levels of "Ranger".

Anyway...

Is the UC talent written in stone from what has been released already? If it has this is all a pointless discussion. We can all fix UC however we want with house rules.
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:28 PM   #32
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Why 5 levels to UC talents???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenex View Post
That's a design flaw.

Pick another iconic class (Ranger, Thief, etc.) and you can build it in TFT without needing 5 levels of "Ranger".

Anyway...

Is the UC talent written in stone from what has been released already? If it has this is all a pointless discussion. We can all fix UC however we want with house rules.
Hi Tenex, everyone.
I think that the UC talents are pretty much locked in.

As for the ranger, I have some thoughts on talents.

In GURPS, you can put multiple character points into a talent, so you could have 24 character points in Engineering (Siege Weapons), say.

In TFT, you either have a talent, or you don't. So if you want to be a beginning Thief, you take Thief talent. If you want to be a better Thief, you take Master Thief. (Ignoring other talents like Silent MA, Climbing, etc.)

So to distinguish beginning characters from experts, you need MORE talents than GURPS.

Now most character 'classes' have 2 or 3 talents (e.g Sword, Sword Expertise, Sword Mastery), (e.g. Mechanician & Master Mechanician). Others have only one talent. But the UC talents have FIVE levels!

I've always been puzzled why the UC talents get so much love, while other equally valid character concepts get so few talents.

The kicker is we don't know how many talents are in the new TFT. It may be that there are a lot more new talents in the new TFT and this concern is baseless.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:35 PM   #33
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: New Unarmed Combat Talents

You can 'build' (though I hate that term in this context...) just about any character you can imagine using canonical TFT, and I suspect that will be even more true with the new edition. I think the UC specialist treatment is in keeping with the rest of the game: It is pretty easy to pick up a level or two as part of some broader suite of abilities, but if you want to go bananas with it the only path is to focus on almost only that. This is what you will find with someone who wants to be a little bit or a lot Ranger-y, or Thief-y, or Swordfighter-y.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:03 AM   #34
flankspeed
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: New Unarmed Combat Talents

I can appreciate that SJG needs to settle on certain rules and get the product out the door. I think that house rules are practically inevitable for anything I have an issue with. For the sake of discussion though, I do have a few points.

Regarding Brawling and barehanded damage, I would like to see this re-named to something like Close Quarters Combat (CQC). I would prefer 1d-3 as the base barehanded damage rather than 1d-4, assuming that rolls of zero or less do no damage at all. I don't want the chance of hitting for zero damage to be greater than 50%.

Also, I want the CQC skill to add +1 to barehanded damage, cestus damage, sap damage, club damage, and dagger/knife damage, with HTH combat adding its normal +1 damage on top of the CQC +1 for a total of +2 in HTH when using CQC.

Regarding Brawling and the 2d vs IQ roll, what is the purpose of allowing this "saving throw"? Is it a Will Power roll to prevent my character from accidentally using Dirty Fighting techniques? Or is it a Persuasion roll to convince my opponent to fight fair? Either way, I don't like rolling for those things.

Why can't I control my own actions to fight fair and avoid Dirty Fighting? And why would a Persuasion roll to control another person's actions be only 2d while not allowing them a save vs my persuasion? I would strongly prefer that the IQ roll be eliminated and all the options during a barroom brawl be left to role playing and not to a 2d roll.

Regarding Unarmed Combat, I would prefer fewer levels of skill. I don't see any reason to eliminate minimum penalties for multiple attacks in one turn or for kicking. I would like at least a -1 DX for making multiple strikes in one turn versus a single strike at no penalty, and I would like the Kick penalty to be a minimum of -1 DX in exchange for the increased damage.

From what I can tell, a Kick eventually does something like 3d-3 damage. Is this what the rules intend, doing almost as much damage as a Bastard Sword in two hands? Of course, Martial Arts kicks are powerful, but are they supposed to be THAT powerful?

If a more cinematic depiction of Martial Arts is intended, then I guess I can understand, but I would have been happy to see three levels of Unarmed Combat giving +1, +2, and +3 damage to Punches (in my version, doing 1d-2, 1d-1, and 1d damage), with Kicks doing +1 beyond that (1d-1, 1d, and 1d+1 damage). HTH would add a further +1 damage beyond these rolls.

The best chance for a barehanded attacker to get through armor is to go for HTH combat, to use Unarmed Combat throws, or to go for a pin and strike into a gap in the armor or pull off the helmet or some of the armor.

Also, I would allow the damage bonus, nerve blows, and throwing ability of Unarmed Combat to function no matter what armor the character was wearing, but I would not allow the Evade defensive penalties against attackers if the character wore heavier than Cloth Armor.

My thinking is that armor slows down a character's ability to dodge, but it does not cancel out knowledge of where to aim punches and kicks for maximum damage or how to grapple and attempt a throw.
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Last edited by flankspeed; 08-23-2018 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 08-23-2018, 02:18 AM   #35
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: New Unarmed Combat Talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
But so far we have no indication that fist damage will increase with ST as far as I have read? IF we do have that I will adjust my sim next week when I am back from a job thing. My guess is that a UC 5 character 12/14/14 or 11/15/14 will then be a top 10 contender for the arena. And double strike might actually be of some use against single opponents. Interesting... If UC also stacks with Brawl it will definitely top the ranking or be very close. UC 5 with Kick is still viable now, but not great. But UC is basically one build per XP level at the moment. And that is boring and therefore a problem in my book.
Guy McLimore answered my "Any answer on whether bare hand damage goes up with ST?" thread this way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by guymc View Post
From the latest version of the Advanced Melee section:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat with Bare Hands, Daggers, Cestus, or Club
It is possible to fight without any weapon at all, either in hand-to-hand combat (e.g., kneeing and gouging) or in regular combat (punching and kicking). The damage a figure does in bare-handed combat is ruled by his strength.
So it does look like bare-hand damage will go up with ST.
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Old 08-30-2018, 12:54 PM   #36
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: New Unarmed Combat Talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
Guy McLimore answered my "Any answer on whether bare hand damage goes up with ST?" thread this way:



So it does look like bare-hand damage will go up with ST.
It sure does. I will recode this in my sim and present something this weekend. Very excited to see how much better the UC builds will be. And how many new builds can be made that are viable. Variation and viable choices are key. :-)
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