System comparison GURPS Dungeon Fantasy vs DnD 5e...?

[OldSam]

Hi everyone,
a friend of mine is wondering if GURPS Dungeon Fantasy or DnD 5e would be the best choice for his next upcoming dungeon crawling game...
(Maybe there already is a thread about that question but I did not find it, seems the forum search function does not really work...)

I myself have no experience with DnD 5e, yet, so the question goes to all people here having played both systems:

What are the arguments, the advantages, to prefer GURPS over DnD 5e?

Basically I know that GURPS is of course the more flexible, more modular system, but I'd like to hear some specifics... ;)

And on the other side are their downsides of using GURPS over DnD in your opinion? Are their categories where DnD wins a comparison in your opinion?

Thank you all! :)

[Captain Joy]

I've played plenty of GURPS, but never Dungeon Fantasy. I've played DnD 5e.

I would suggest that GURPS's strengths is it will allow you to enjoy other genres in the future, when you're ready for that. DnD's advantage is that it has more support material like canned adventures and monsters.

[trechriron]

There are huge fundamental differences system-wise. However, I'm certain you could pull off any D&D-style adventure/game with either. I have too many points to make and I'm rambling, so bear with me...

For starters, the HP system in D&D is abstract. With short and long rests, it changes the nature of combat. Things feel more "cinematic" where you are either up and fighting or out and dying. D&D style hit points are designed to build a sense of stress as they whittle down. It can and does feel somewhat abrupt when you're "taken out".

GURPS HP represent life. They are a representation of how much punishment you can take and measure how long you can withstand that punishment. Like IRL, you are likely to go down and THEN bleed to death vs. dying from one blow. Adding in shock and reeling and HP in GURPS feel more realistic (IMHO).

D&D combat has a passive defense score (AC) that generally doesn't increase as you level (unless you get better or magical armor). In GURPS armor absorbs damage. Your defense is based (commonly) on an opposed roll. There is a lot of blocks, parries and dodges in GURPS. In D&D you're going to "hit more often" but as you level up and gain more HP, you stand up in combat longer. In GURPS, you land blows less often, but when you do they have a direct impact on the target. It feels more like actual combat with actual consequences (again, IMHO).

The differences poke different people's buttons. I like the idea that "getting hit" does damage and that damage should be represented so that it has some impact after combat. It seems weird to me that after a short rest you can pop back up to fighting order. D&D is more about the adventuring as a game while GURPS is more about the challenge of adventuring (and surviving!).

In contrast, D&D 5e plays faster. I have GM'ed both games and simpler does go faster. However, when playing GURPS I like to use the core options. You can skip tactical combat and stick to simple combat and GURPS goes faster. However, I don't believe it's ever going to go faster than D&D5e.

In further contrast (and however) you may want some options in your combat! Some players are not satisfied just hitting and dealing damage. GURPS does support all kinds of tactics, maneuvers and options that can seriously tickle the boredom out of any martial focused player.

D&D numbers escalate and IMHO ALL D&D style games suffer from numbers bloat as levels escalate. Combats DO become longer with escalating powers, spells and magic items adding exponential complexity. GURPS is smoother in scale and power increases at a pace that everyone can keep up with (again, IMHO).

a d20 is linear while 3d6 is a bell curve. This does impact the FEEL of checks in each game. D&D CAN be "swingy" feeling where there is some chaos in the randomness where GURPS leans on averages where the critical rolls are rarer (some find this more exciting!). Some of my players liked the "epic" and chaotic nature of a d20 roll where other players enjoy a little more "consistency" in the outcomes.

Another thing to consider with the DF PDF line IS the various "tuning" options you have. GURPS can be customized and remains the same game. If you look at some of the mechanical acrobatics that have been performed during the 3.x era to fit certain ideas into the D&D mold, you quickly see the strengths of the toolkit approach. You can bring in a new "class" or magic system and still be playing GURPS. You often cannot say that with D&D options.

D&D5e is a well designed version of D&D. Character creation is fast, combat is fast and the sheer number of options that cropped up in the 3.x era have been trimmed down. The books/art are gorgeous and the writing is somewhat less academic than GURPS can be.

GURPS 4e is not only well designed but has been so for decades. 15 years into 4e is a strong argument for stability, play-testing and enjoyment. With the paring down of various Traits, the templates, and pre-made characters, 80 some monsters ready to rock, and a GM screen I'm sure DF will be simpler than a full game of GURPS I might want to put on. :-) It seems like there may be a ready-to-play version that could compete with 5e's "pick up and play" appeal.

Between the two I prefer GURPS (obviously), but the appeal of a larger player base, a faster game and adventure support draws a lot people to D&D. I hope the DF boxed set will bridge more of that gap.

[JMason]

Here are some reasons I use GURPS over D&D:

- HP that makes sense. In GURPS HP loss is bodily damage. D&D Hit Points are some abstract mesurment of combat stamina, damage tolerance, and luck. It isn't always clear what is happening when a character "takes damage"

- Active defences. I like having an active role in determining if my character is going to take damage.

- Customization. This is the big one. With GURPS you can form your character concept, then build it. Want a one eyed wizard in plate mail with a long sword. OK. Want to be a prince cursed and stuck in the body of a wolf... fine. With D&D I feel that I have to start with a character class and then make a concept that fits it.

Less "swing-y" dice rolls. The 20-sided die has a flat distribution. I perfer the bell curve of 3d6.

[sir_pudding]

My answer earlier:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The big difference for me is the higher level of detail in combat. GURPS combats are much more like real fights, or movie fights where every action is significant. D&D/Pathfinder fights are much more abstract and feel like someone summarizing a battle in very broad terms than describing it blow-by-blow.

[Rasputin]

• Getting new traits (i.e., leveling up) in GURPS happens after most sessions. You have more control over the process.
• Character creation is much faster in D&D. I'm impressed how they handled the whole backgrounds/class options in 5e. In a few minutes, you have a well-rounded character.
• Combat in GURPS is more interesting, though takes longer (D&D 5e doesn't have the padded sumo wrestling issue of 4e). It helps if your players bother to learn the system; GURPS rewards system mastery.

[DocRailgun]

It depends on what kind of game you'really looking for. Yes, DF is supposed to be a munchkiny sort of game, but you can also easily do a low-powered gritty game (as in classic AD&D, where a party fought one encounter with some fire beetles and then had to hobble back to town to rest). Those sorts of games aren't possible anymore in 5th edition without a lot of work on the GM's part - most everyone has more hp now (wizards even have a d6), ample chances to heal themselves with hour long rests, arcane spellcasters in armor (though with high Dex, light armor is as good as heavy armor), and almost anyone can have a blaster spell they can cast each round if they want to be a High elf, take a level in a spellcasters class or spend a feat at 4th level.

On the other hand, 5th ed. doesn't have the unstoppable juggernauts of mid-to-high level 3.5 because there aren't a million ways to get bonuses - there no more of the stackable armor class bonuses l, for instance. The stat-boosting spells of 3.5 (Bull's Strength, etc.) don't actually increase stats in 5th ed., they just give advantage on that stat's tests, so adventurers won't be getting +10 Str and Dex (+something arcane, +something divine, +something profane, etc.) before battles.

The nice thing is that there are reasons to play fighters now, especially if you want to play a gish. There's niche protection if you want it or you can end up with PCs who can do their class' job, cast one of those blaster can trips, and cast some minor healing by 8th level even without sacrificing any main class levels.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by DocRailgun

It depends on what kind of game you're really looking for. Yes, DF is supposed to be a munchkiny sort of game, but you can also easily do a low-powered gritty game (as in classic AD&D, where a party fought one encounter with some fire beetles and then had to hobble back to town to rest). Those sorts of games aren't possible anymore in 5th edition without a lot of work on the GM's part - most everyone has more hp now (wizards even have a d6), ample chances to heal themselves with hour long rests, arcane spellcasters in armor (though with high Dex, light armor is as good as heavy armor), and almost anyone can have a blaster spell they can cast each round if they want to be a High elf, take a level in a spellcasters class or spend a feat at 4th level.

That's an excellent point. If you want an old-school game in D&D 5e, you have to break many of the assumptions on which the system is based. Mind you, this isn't too hard—make sure you include wandering monsters in the dungeon, gold for XP and multiply XP goals by five for each level—but you lose a lot of the support of the system. GURPS? Run the game at 125 points using the templates in Henchmen. Make sure you have lots of fodder monsters. Done.

[mehrkat]

DnD is at its core a game where you assess the danger and expect to use and lose resources and a dungeon crawl is this choice over and over again.

Should I use my ability that takes a long rest to get back or ask I going to need it later. Will the hp I take in this battle a lower cost. Those are the tactical choices you are making.

In GURPS the tactical choices you are making involve making sure you have the advantage in each combat, where every blow taken matter. Each second you have tactically significant choices.

I find it feels different.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

• Character creation is much faster in D&D. I'm impressed how they handled the whole backgrounds/class options in 5e. In a few minutes, you have a well-rounded character.

This conclusion can run into issues pretty quickly. My 5e group has 5 players and 2 have the Outlander Background and 2 have the Criminal one. This not only gives you the same Skill choices and the one special ability it gives the same equipment too. i.e. Krak-raised-by-wolves and Fe the Party Girl both have musical instruments because Outlanders are all just musically gifted.

You could run out of well-rounded character options in just a couple of games. 5e might be "easy in" but it's "easy out" too.

There is also little choice in many 5e characters. This seeds chargen but limits growth. Besides rolling and palcing stats I may have made about 7-8 choices during chargen and 2 since then (just made 4th level). Between now and 20th level there would be only thechoices at 8th,12th,16th and 19th levels about attribute points (and which ones) or Feats (and which ones). Those aren't really hard choices either.

Gurps, of course is all about choices.

Also, IMHO there's a sort of general robustness factor. Gurps is about as robust as game systems get and causes me to say "WTF" in just a few places.

For example, it's probably part of a deliberate design choice but 5e'Encumbrance rules are generous to say the least. Krak's carries a great axe, 4 javelins, 2 hand axes,1 dagger, a longbow w/arrows, a quarterstaff, a bear trap, a drum, a general issue backpack and occasionally another PC and he hasn't hit his Encumbrance limit (300 lbs) yet.

Let there be no mistake. You can have fun playing 5e but then I had fun in a long 2e campaign and even a 1e one-shot (we killed 57 kobolds) not that long ago. But would I pick 5e over Gurps as a GM? No, the rules would get in my way too often.