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Old 09-19-2016, 07:00 AM   #41
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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Originally Posted by demonsbane View Post
And geared towards high-fantasy as well. It's very broad in comparison with the scope officially acknowledged so far to Dungeon Fantasy (https://goo.gl/j9dyiG).
What gamers call High Fantasy and what literary critics call High Fantasy are wildly different genres, D&D essentially defines the former but has little to do with the latter beyond pilfering some of its elements.
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Recently I've been revising that material and maybe it's broader than what you may be recalling.
I doubt it has much utility for posthuman anarchists trying to settle the atmosphere of Jupiter. In fact, I'd wager it doesn't do much for any part of that sentence other than the verb.
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And mentioning The Castle Guide, I am talking about the GURPS Dungeon fantasy frame, or DFPBG as well, not about the standard GURPS frame.
Refplace argued upthread that a DF-specific treatment of settlements isn't needed, because a general treatment for GURPS would cover it. I responded that these are very different hypothetical books, that only superficially share a subject, and you were responding to this.

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Old 09-19-2016, 07:07 AM   #42
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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I doubt it has much utility for posthuman anarchists trying to settle the atmosphere of Jupiter.
And that has to do with . . . ?

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Refplace argued upthread that a DF-specific treatment of settlements isn't needed, because a general treatment for GURPS would cover it. I responded that these are very different books, that only superficially share a subject, and you were responding to this.
Upthread you answered to me, and then I answered to you.

On the other hand I can't answer to every post I don't agree with, and I mentioned The Castle Guide in the part of my answer addressed to Malfi.
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Old 09-19-2016, 07:26 AM   #43
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

All this lit-crit discussion is somewhat off-base. We all know what DF is, what it's sources and inspirations are. It's a hodge-podge of things from a variety of forms and mediums.

Mostly DF products are worked examples for one set of assumptions. The products make all genre and setting decisions for you and give you the results. Reduce to simplest form. That's it.

If you want mass combat in DF, work up some armies for it. Orcs, high elves, skeletons, goblins, etc. Make a table with prices. Then strip the mass combat rules down to just low-tech army rules, maybe just the opposing rolls without all the nitpicking details. Done.

If you want a castle book, get into Low-Tech Companion 3 and work up the likes of a 20'x20'x50' stone tower, then 50' of stone walls 20' thick, and so on. Make a shopping list like in the old D&D books with the structure, it's DR, HP, price, man-days of construction, etc. Basically, do all the work. Make it easy on the players. Make a table of such things. Done.

A DF Dragons books would strip out all the best DF-like stuff from the GURPS Dragons book and give you a bunch of worked examples of every color and breath weapon, but without all the "build your own" elements. DF Towns and Markets is a totally viable product, but it would be totally focused on the DF assumptions.

Whatever DF is, mostly it's a way to show players and GMs how to use the GURPS toolkit. It's "non-scary" GURPS, first-level GURPS, if you will. As the line has grown it's advanced to expert, companion, and masters levels -- with guilds, taverns, and wilderness adventures.
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Old 09-19-2016, 07:28 AM   #44
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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And that has to do with . . . ?.
A hypothetical GURPS book about founding and managing settlements. Surely GURPS should be able to handle a game based on Ken Macleod novels, yes?

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Upthread you answered to me, and then I answered to you
When you said:
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Also when you mention realism, it seems to me that it has to do more with extremely down-to-earth matters hardly having something to do with fantasy and adventure (like picking a jury). It's not that you can't find them interesting for placing them in your game, however.
You were referring to that conversation about hypothetical books about settlement management.

I want to emphasize though that how criminal trials are structured is pretty fundamental to any serious treatment of establishing governments.

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Old 09-19-2016, 07:42 AM   #45
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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A hypothetical GURPS book about founding and managing settlements. Surely GURPS should be able to handle a game based on Ken Macleod novels, yes?
I think it would be much better if you try to be on-topic.

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You were referring to that conversation about hypothetical books about settlement management.
No, concerning that you answered to my comment to Malfi,

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That was, IIRC, geared towards the same sword-and-sorcery usages (. . .)
and then I answered to you. It's there actually if you want to check it.
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Old 09-19-2016, 07:47 AM   #46
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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I think it would be much better if you try to be on-topic.
I was, for the conversation with Refplace.
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No, concerning that you answered to my comment to Malfi,
What did jurisprudence have to do with that?

ETA: Ah yes, I see where the streams got crossed there. I imagine that AD&D book still had a narrow focus in comparison to GURPS though.

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Old 09-19-2016, 07:53 AM   #47
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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All this lit-crit discussion is somewhat off-base. We all know what DF is, what it's sources and inspirations are. It's a hodge-podge of things from a variety of forms and mediums.
This, I think, is what the mission statement about genre that is the introduction to Adventurers is intended to establish.
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Old 09-19-2016, 07:59 AM   #48
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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I was, for the conversation with Refplace.
If you say so . . .

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What did jurisprudence have to do with that?
You mentioned it earlier, in the post #27, and answering to you I put it there for conveying better to you what I mean.

Anyway, what is your point in doing this actually? This is nonsensical.
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:06 AM   #49
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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If you want a castle book, get into Low-Tech Companion 3 and work up the likes of a 20'x20'x50' stone tower, then 50' of stone walls 20' thick, and so on. Make a shopping list like in the old D&D books with the structure, it's DR, HP, price, man-days of construction, etc. Basically, do all the work. Make it easy on the players. Make a table of such things. Done.
Yeah, I need to finish that Pyramid article.

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Whatever DF is, mostly it's a way to show players and GMs how to use the GURPS toolkit. It's "non-scary" GURPS, first-level GURPS, if you will.
This is key. DF, as a product line, is about high-powered heroes in low-tech drag going into holes in the ground, killing things, and taking their stuff. As a product line, it's not going to get into other topics except to the extent to which they touch on that job description. Are there towns? Sure. That's where you buy stuff and recharge your power items. To the extent DF touches on towns, that's what it'll talk about. Civic government? The precise extent of the agricultural hinterland supporting that town? DF isn't about that. It exists, but it's peripheral to what the product line does. On a related note, domain management. Yes, people manage domains in DF worlds, but as a product line, DF isn't likely to address that in detail. To the extent it matters in DF books, it's going to be a question of how many followers an adventurer can take adventuring with him, how much having a domain influences wealth, and maybe whether or not having a domain defrays cost of living during downtime. That's a Pyramid article outlining packages of advantages (groups of Allies, variants of Claim to Hospitality, and so on).

However, it can't be overstated that this is about DF as a product line. It has nothing to do with your game, for any given value of "you." DF provides tools for certain activities. The rest of GURPS provides a much, much larger but compatible toolkit. Want to build a castle? As Shawn says, LTC3 is right there. Want to add courtly intrigue? There's Social Engineering; you go get it, baby. Now, certainly, there are interfaces which could be built. Say, suggestions for how to elegantly add social skills to DF templates or some sample holdings for land-owning characters using the rules from LTC3 and related works. But these are Pyramid articles or similarly brief treatments. There's no need to alter the mission statement of the DF line.
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:23 AM   #50
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Default Re: [DF] Beyond the Dungeon

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If you say so . . .
Do you not agree that the topic is much broader than mere Fighter Keeps and Wizard Towers? Especially if you extend it to any genre and any era?
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You mentioned it earlier, in the post #27, and answering to you I put it there for conveying better to you what I mean.
Because a serious treatment of establishing a government would require it, but a Dungeon Fantasy treatment probably wouldn't.
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Anyway, what is your point in doing this actually? This is nonsensical.
  • I think what people would generally want in a Dungeon Fantasy treatment of settlements is something when like 2e D&D high level fighters got keeps.
  • I think a more general GURPS book about establishing and managing settlements would look more like City Stats crossed with Boardroom and Curia crossed with the Low-Tech Companions.
  • The former isn't really much like the latter. It is however like the rest of the the DF line and specifically has that narrow focus on a specific genre that you are apparently complaining about.

Look, I talked about this more generally on my blog (and that is probably a better place to continue this discussion), but I like Dungeon Fantasy as it is. I might have liked the kind of thing it would have been if instead of embracing the genre it deconstructed it and recontextualized it into a more serious, more artsy approach, but I don't think that I would like it the same way, and I certainly doubt it would have been as successful.
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