Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

[mehrkat]

I've been running a gaming group for over 3 years that allows archers to attack every turn. They have to make a fast-draw roll to pull the arrows.

I've also allowed wizards to cast with one turns fatigue build up in one turn with a skill modifier (that can be bought off with extra fatigue).

The archery rule worked fine the spellcaster not so much but I'm mostly without power gamers. I would probably try the spellcaster rule again but it needs additional tweaking.

[simply Nathan]

You don't need Heroic Archer to shoot every turn as an archer, just a decent level of Fast-Draw. With Heroic Archer all your unaimed shots effectively become Aimed, and your move-and-attack shots basically become regular shots.

Normal archer:
Turn 1: Pull arrow
Turn 2: Shoot

Fast-Draw Archer:
Turn 1: Roll Fast-Draw. If successful, shoot.
Turn 2: If Fast-Draw failed on the last turn, shoot. If not, repeat Turn 1.

[scc]

I have a slight problem with some of the logic expressed in this thread. Using the logic that Missile build mages shouldn't be able to cast and fire each turn because they've got range, a Melee build mage should be able to cast and thawk in a single turn. I'm not saying that would automatically be a good thing, although it would make melee spells more useful, but it does line up with the logic expressed.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

You don't need Heroic Archer to shoot every turn as an archer, just a decent level of Fast-Draw. With Heroic Archer all your unaimed shots effectively become Aimed, and your move-and-attack shots basically become regular shots.

Normal archer:
Turn 1: Pull arrow
Turn 2: Shoot

Fast-Draw Archer:
Turn 1: Roll Fast-Draw. If successful, shoot.
Turn 2: If Fast-Draw failed on the last turn, shoot. If not, repeat Turn 1.

No.

It's this for Completely Normal Archers:
Turn 1: Ready Arrow
Turn 2: Knock and Draw Bow
Turn 3: Shoot

The relevant text:

Originally Posted by Martial Arts, p 119

Bows have RoF 1 and Shots 1(2). This means that an archer can normally loose an arrow every three seconds.

Fast-Draw (Arrow) Archer:
Turn 1: Successfully roll Fast-Draw (Arrow) [1], Knock Arrow and Draw Bow.
Turn 2: Shoot.

Quick Shooting Fast-Draw (Arrow) Archer:
Turn 1 (AOA (Determined) Maneuver) [2]: Successfully roll Fast-Draw (Arrow) [1], Successfully roll Bow at -6 [3] [4] to Knock Arrow and Draw Bow, Shoot at -6 [4] to Bow skill.


[1] - Failure on this roll means you drop the arrow and spend the turn instead performing an unproductive Ready Maneuver.
[2] - A Heroic Archer can perform a Move and Attack Maneuver as well as just the AOA (Determined).
[3] - Failure on this roll means the Character instead spends the turn Readying the Bow and may shoot as normal (no penalty) next turn. On a Critical Failure he drops the bow.
[4] - Heroic Archer or Weapon Master (Bow) reduce this penalty to -3. Having both reduces it to -1. Keep in mind the AOA (Determined) Maneuver still gives it's +1 after the penalty is imposed.



NOTE: The Quick Shooting Fast-Draw (Arrow) Archer is recommended for Cinematic Campaigns. For a 'realistic' version of this they recommend a much higher penalty.

[PK]

What evileeyore said. :)

[DocRailgun]

All spellcasting classes can do all these things in 5th edition D&D - every class has a ranged cantrip that does about as much damage as a bow or a melee weapon does and can cast it every player turn. What's more, anyone who wants to play a High Elf can get a cantrip like that (100' range, d10 damage), or anyone who wants to spend a feat at level 4, 8, 12, 16, and so on. Even fighters and rogues can get in on the act at 3rd level (Eldritch Knights or Arcane Tricksters, respectively).
Luckily, in 5th edition D&D other classes scale up nicely with spellcasting classes.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

A wizard is not an artillery platform, he's a game-changer. He's that in D&D too, by the way: In 4e, he was classed a "controller," not a "striker," and that seems right to me. A wizard isn't blasting stuff over and over with fireballs, he's casting sleep spells, or summons, or some other crazy, vast trick that rewrites the battlefield in favor of his allies. That's even more true in DF, in my experience.

[ericbsmith]

I think one of the issues with the whole Heroic Archer, Weapon Master (Bow), trick shooting combo is that the rules for it are literally spread out all over the place in GURPS Martial Arts. I recall having to look at three or four different sections of the book to combine those rules in my head and get a grasp on the archer's capabilities, and you're still missing the extra rules (and yet more rules sections to look up in MA) that allows Heroic Archers to Multiple Fast-Draw and then perform Dual-Weapon attacks with the Bow, firing two arrows at once. Honestly, I think the whole process could use an article streamlining all of the capabilities and referencing all of the relevant pages.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

But in any case, maybe I'm wrong. It seems that the problem isn't that GURPS forces mages to be slow and spend fatigue, but that the standard magic system does. GURPS actually has quite a few other magic systems, like Sorcery, RPM, and an entire catalog of options in Thaumatology.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Of course, if what you want is an artillery/blaster mage, DF can support that - build a Sorcerer (Pyramid #3/82) instead of a Wizard.

I find it mildly amusing that both of you replied to me with the same thought: "Because the standard Magic Rules don't support what is wanted why not just use one of these alternate rules systems instead?" And the whole point of what I said is that the standard rules can be easily tweaked to support exactly what is wanted, taking a lot less effort than learning/incorporating a different magic system, simply by introducing a few spell variants that do exactly what is wanted: Extremely fast casting missile spells, likely balanced out by doing lower damage and having minimum casting costs.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

I find it mildly amusing that both of you replied to me with the same thought: "Because the standard Magic Rules don't support what is wanted why not just use one of these alternate rules systems instead?" And the whole point of what I said is that the standard rules can be easily tweaked to support exactly what is wanted, taking a lot less effort than learning/incorporating a different magic system, simply by introducing a few spell variants that do exactly what is wanted: Extremely fast casting missile spells, likely balanced out by doing lower damage and having minimum casting costs.

I think you're really underestimating the complexities of "minor house rules" to a large, complex system like GURPS Magic, as opposed to using systems that are actually tailored to do exactly what the OP is asking for.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

I find it mildly amusing that both of you replied to me with the same thought: "Because the standard Magic Rules don't support what is wanted why not just use one of these alternate rules systems instead?" And the whole point of what I said is that the standard rules can be easily tweaked to support exactly what is wanted, taking a lot less effort than learning/incorporating a different magic system, simply by introducing a few spell variants that do exactly what is wanted: Extremely fast casting missile spells, likely balanced out by doing lower damage and having minimum casting costs.

Standard Magic wasn't built on, well, standards, it was built on whatever felt right at the time. This makes it really difficult to modify it, at least in my opinion, and what you're talking about isn't necessarily as simple as you think. For example, if we go off of Thaumatology's "Trading Energy for Speed and Skill," and opt to ignore the "No Casting Time Below One Second" bit (but only for missile spells that are being Aimed or thrown immediately), you're still talking about adding 4 energy onto the cost of the spell. That's enough for up to another 4d of damage! Adding in a whole new spell might be possible (shame there's no rules on how to build those...), but mage players are likely to end up feeling a bit miffed about "having" to learn Fireball, Quickened Fireball, Explosive Fireball, and Quickened Explosive Fireball.

That said, there have been plenty of responses here from people who have tried various houserules to address this, some of which appear to have worked out alright. I think the small reduction in casting time still doesn't make artillery/blaster mages all that viable, while Sorcery certainly does - my point was more "If you want an artillery/blaster mage in DF, build a Sorceror instead of a Wizard" than "If you want to fix this one little problem, build a Sorceror instead of a Wizard."