Weird Setting Idea

[Michael Hopcroft]

The talk of GURPS Interregnum has inspired me with what may be a weird setting idea.

Imagine an altenrate Europe in which there are two rival relgions -- Christinaity, which works pretty much the way Christiantiy did in our world, and nature-Worship. The nature-worshippers are condemned by the Church as "satanic witches" and persecuted, but know magic and are able to manipulate the forces of nature. Christian priests have no power whatsoever except the ability to guide their flocks, the backing of the powerful polticial system centered at the Vatican, and the ability to pass judgmenet on their flock.

Some priests go out of their way to stamp out their rivals and become witch-hunters, with the power to mete out violent death in the name of "Gentle Jesus, meek and mild". Obviously the oriagnized part of the Church is unclear on the concept -- many of the nature-worshippers are far closer to practicing real Chsitian principles 9as taught by jesus) than the Church is.

Suddenly a new menace emerges -- the Black Death. It threatens to wipe out Europe, but the "evil witches" have the cure! Will the Church make peace with their enemies to save themselves, or continue persecution and allow civilization to perish for their hate?

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by Michael Hopcroft

Imagine an altenrate Europe in which there are two rival relgions -- Christinaity, which works pretty much the way Christiantiy did in our world, and nature-Worship. The nature-worshippers are condemned by the Church as "satanic witches" and persecuted, but know magic and are able to manipulate the forces of nature. Christian priests have no power whatsoever except the ability to guide their flocks, the backing of the powerful polticial system centered at the Vatican, and the ability to pass judgmenet on their flock.

Doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. How do you rationalize the initial success of a church whose priests can't work magic when their opponents can?

[Pagan]

Originally Posted by Akicita

Doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. How do you rationalize the initial success of a church whose priests can't work magic when their opponents can?

When most of the population believes in christianity you don't need magic. If the most of the warriors are christian, you don't need magic. When most of the political structure is christian you don't need magic. All you need is to control the population, the warriors and the politicians. If the church is telling all these people that magic is from the devil then to them it's evil and more than a fireball, people will fear their souls going to hell. Pure numbers and mob mentality will win out in such a situation.

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by Pagan

When most of the population believes in christianity you don't need magic.

Yeah, but...

How did they ever get to the point where most of the population believes in Christianity?

[Pagan]

Originally Posted by Akicita

Yeah, but...

How did they ever get to the point where most of the population believes in Christianity?

Priests, missionaries, churches, etc. Unless magic is so prevelant in one's campaign that it is common to see mages then it is quite simple to make the population put their faith in something that is looking out for them and their welfare. You also have the issue of jealousy and envy going for you. Also, real life christian mythology is filled with manifest miracles, why not one's fantasy world?

How worst if one's campaign history has mages who are without moral compass (of which I'm assuming there are a few if mages exists at all). In our (that is to say, the USA) history we have people worshipping heads of lettuce and the Reverand Moon, and are willing to give their lives to do so. Christianity is at least as compelling as these. Take a harsh existence with no real relief on a large scale and to this introduce the notion that your reward is not here on earth but in heaven after one's body has died and it becomes an attractive way to live and better yet survive the day to day harshness of reality.

With no real way to prove christianity wrong or evil (faith, by definition requiring no proof) and a few miracles to work, and an evil (magic) to work against, christianity could easily gain a foothold in people's lives.

[Sam Baughn]

Amusingly, it seems that actual historical European pagans (British Saxons in the example I read) were under the impression that Christian missionaries were not to be trusted because they practiced magic. At one point there was an entire body of folk 'wisdom' based around avoiding christian enchantments (the specific example I recall was that you should always speak to a Christian outside, where there was a healthy breeze and he couldn't breathe his magic into your ear).

[bazzalisk]

Interestingly, you might want to consider basing this not on Christians vs. some vague "Nature Worshipers", but Rather on Catholic vs. CEltic Christianity.

Celtic Christianity was a version of christian belief which grew up in Ireland, and spread via scotland into northern England, during the 900s it came into contact with the first (post-roman) catholic missionaries entering england, and there was a lot of struggle and disagreement (some of it fairly violent) between the two faiths. In the end Catholic Christianity won in both England and Ireland, but it could easily have gone the other way, with a Celtic rite Archbishop of Cantebury refusing to allow the roman church in.

[Sam Baughn]

Bazzalisk, wasn't there a period when Celtic Christianity was almost entirely destroyed in England by the arrival of the (pagan) Saxons? I seem to recall that it was something of a minority faith by the time Continental Catholics started to send missionaries over.

EDIT: By minority faith, I mean less than 10% of the population.

[bazzalisk]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

Bazzalisk, wasn't there a period when Celtic Christianity was almost entirely destroyed in England by the arrival of the (pagan) Saxons? I seem to recall that it was something of a minority faith by the time Continental Catholics started to send missionaries over.

No, the arival of the saxons came before the spread of Celtic Christianity. Britian was Early Christian under the romans, then pagan under the saxons, it became christian again when the Celtic Rite christianity was imported from Ireland.

Some Information on St. Chad of Lichfield who was caught right in the middle of the controversy when the Roman Church attempted to replace the celtic one (In the mid 7th Century)

[Sam Baughn]

Apparently I was confusing early (Roman empire style) Christianity with Celtic Christianity.