The unfortunate situation of GURPS

[RyanW]

My group has been introducing a couple of new players (one played D&D some time back, the other is entirely new to RPGs), and once they are up to speed we've discussed possibly recording play sessions for posting to YouTube. Nothing definite, at the moment.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I have no interest in running games in someone else's universe or in squeezing players through set-piece adventures. And I don't like confining characters to trope-based 'classes'. I want to see and play characters that are realized individuals with features and motivations that distinguish them. So GURPS is the only RPG I run campaigns with. It is the only one I know of that adequately supports my from-the-ground-up fusion-style setting building.

That said, I am a customer, not a missionary. I'd be happy for GURPS to do well, and for more people to play it. But I don't feel a responsibility for that.

This has been my own mindset for a very long time. What I am interested in is keeping my own groups topped up, and every now and then finding groups in which to play. I've never had an issue with either, and of the players in my campaign since I started GMing GURPS, I've taught the system to well over 90% of them.

Most forum gamers, IMHO, lack any real understanding of economics. In their own echo chambers, they magnify the tiny little niche games they play -- published by tiny niche companies with market shares that would be considered abject failures in the outside business world -- to unrealistic proportions.

But that's the niche GURPS is in now, shared by dozens of other tiny little niche games. Only two RPGs have ever had widespread name recognition in the outside world, and with online gaming now dwarfing tabletop by several orders of magnitude, I very much doubt any other TTRPG will ever again do so ... short of the highly improbable scenario of the next big Big Bang Theory-esque streaming hit having their protagonists as regular players of one.

And no amount of "marketing" SJ Games might undertake will change that. C'mon, folks: this is a very hidebound hobby, for one that is so prone to chasing the pretty new butterflies. There are hundreds of thousands of gamers out there who just will not, under any circumstances, play any game that does not have "D&D" stamped on the cover. There are hundreds of thousands of gamers who stare at you as if they're trying to figure out whether you've just thrown obscenities at them in suggesting that a game can be played without character classes, levels or alignment. They like their comfort zones just fine, they see no reason to leave, and heck, I'd wager that 90% of D&D players don't have any idea about the current (echo chamber-driven) flap about the OGL, and wouldn't give a damn if they did.

GURPS had its day as one of the big players in the Not-D&D segment of the hobby ... and that was decades ago, and we had less than 10% of the overall market. (That being around the top end of the "abject failure market share" level.) People will continue to play it, and products will continue to come out, and the company will stay in business, and these are all great things ... the same way that model railroad enthusiasts still have their clubs and their setups and small companies that make their stuff, and Civil War reenactors still have their groups and their encampments, and small companies that make their stuff.

[Dominator]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Others, like Chris Normand, have created and shared tutorials that can help correct the common misperception that GURPS is ridiculously complicated.

This youtube series needs more exposure, it is a great resource for those who want to understand how GURPS works, or those (like me) getting back into GURPS after a long haitus.

[seycyrus]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

...And no amount of "marketing" SJ Games might undertake will change that.

"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas."

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

C'mon, folks: this is a very hidebound hobby, ...

The recent OGL controversy has shook a lot of people up. If there ever was a time to strike out, now is the time.

Or, SJG could try doing nothing ...

[Lovewyrm]

It's gotten better and better, visibility.
Chris Normand and Enraged Eggplant are doing some pretty high volume work recently.

And having a proper VTT module also helps immensely in this current era.
I touched on that in the OGL thread...so..what SJG can do, in my opinion is:
Stay sane, don't go garbage...and instead just update the fan works legalese to bring it to a friendlier, more cooperative and more modern version.

No need for an OGL, GURPS is vast and very feature rich, there is no need for a D&D Pathfinder like split...it's all gonna be okay.


Just stay sane, don't go too crazy and 'too modern' (if GURPS ever is eblazoned with lame brain technicolor goats for 'diversity' that look like they belong in WoW is the moment I drop it forever ) and you can sell GURPS 4th edition for a long long long time.

Just don't go nuts. People hate lootboxes and 23408304 streaming subscriptions already, yes they still make money...but they're not loved, people just roll with the punches cause they are normal everyday people who do not have the will, the skills or whatever to create their own media empires and the like, so naturally they will be impressed by that sort of stuff and take it as it is, even if it's bad in some ways.

What is the regular Joe these going to do to watch some shows? Pirate them off torrent trackers?
Install PGP and run their own XMPP setup or IRC instead of Discord?
Embrace self signed certificates on websites instead of clicking "GO BACK" when the scary warning about them pops up in the browser?

I consider regular Joe to be capable of all these things, but it's just not the standard at the moment.
But Joe would enjoy more sanity, I am 100% sure about that.

So. Just keep things cool..don't go cringe city and your (all the staff that has worked on things so far) names will not yet be a curse on the tongue of people, like Disney and co.

Even if you happen to be old...if something works, just keep it working.
GURPS has visibility issues, nothing else. It's super cool otherwise.

Believe in humanity and the limits of them eating doodoo. They get tired of it eventually and if you keep it cool, GURPS will be the salvation to all the people who are hungry for some real nutritious fare.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by zarawesome

Page 11, 4th edition: "Character design in GURPS is intended to give a balanced hero, someone whose strengths and weaknesses more or less cancel each other out."

Just three lines, but they're the only justification for the character point system i can find anywhere in the book.

That one line is unfortunate and perhaps inaccurate. I've always treated Character Points as a limiter on how competent any given PC could be, not how competent they will be.

Character Points certainly aren't any indication on how well "balanced" any two Characters will be.

Originally Posted by seycyrus

The question still remains, IS SJG making it easier or making it harder for GURPS to be used on virtual tabletops?

Actively? Neither as far as I can tell.

SJG isn't actively makign it harder, but then I don't believe they are expending resources to adapt to thr VTT market. But then we aren't privy to anything they are doing behind the scenes, they could very well have been developing VTT tools for the last year and it's just not a project they've let info slip on.

Or, SJG could try doing nothing ...

The GURPS line barely pays for itself and is mostly bankrolled by other departments, so what do you expect it to do that costs no initial capital or that is actually a guaranteed success?

Keep in mind that as far as I recall, the DFRPG project was actually kind of a flop... (I think it was described as "significantly under-performing", but it did just well enough they've put out the occasional expansion for it.)

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

The GURPS line barely pays for itself and is mostly bankrolled by other departments,

I don't think that's correct. I believe Kromm has indicated that GURPS revenues are directed into higher-return products.

[blackbirch]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

The GURPS line barely pays for itself and is mostly bankrolled by other departments, so what do you expect it to do that costs no initial capital or that is actually a guaranteed success?

Keep in mind that as far as I recall, the DFRPG project was actually kind of a flop... (I think it was described as "significantly under-performing", but it did just well enough they've put out the occasional expansion for it.)

I firmly believe the takeaway from that should be "more books don't bring new customers" rather than "GURPS can't reach more customers".

[Boge]

I think Gurps is too complicated. Even if it was out there and known, once people realized how complicated it can be, they'd rather just play something simpler. It really is more of a simulation than a game.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Keep in mind that as far as I recall, the DFRPG project was actually kind of a flop... (I think it was described as "significantly under-performing", but it did just well enough they've put out the occasional expansion for it.)

Originally Posted by blackbirch

I firmly believe the takeaway from that should be "more books don't bring new customers" rather than "GURPS can't reach more customers".

My personal view is that the takeaway should have been "there are already enough dungeon crawl games on the market that trying to muscle into that niche is not viable; SJGames should focus on what GURPS can do rather than trying to ape what DnD does".