Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-11-2023, 07:16 PM   #41
Witchking
 
Witchking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Athens of America
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Seems like business-school tactics. They've built up a dominant market share with D&D5e, so it's time to exploit that position. Doing a new edition makes changing the license legally straightforward, and brings in a bunch of money as people buy the books again.
Unless they DON'T buy the books again. See the edition before 5th E.
__________________
My center is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent. I shall attack.-Foch
America is not perfect, but I will hold her hand until she gets well.-unk Tuskegee Airman
Witchking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2023, 09:56 PM   #42
robertsconley
 
robertsconley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The problem from Wizards' side is that if they don't revoke the existing license, all the third parties will just ignore the new license and produce things against the 5e SRD, and because they're trying to make it so everything in 5e works for the new edition, any such product will be compatible with the new edition.
It has been pointed out that if the OGL 1.0a is revoked then the publishers are no longer bound by it's restrictions. And they are free to take the game mechanics can't be copyrighted approach (with advice of an attorney) and release products that prominently state.

"Compatible with One D&D".

Revocation appears to be a two edge sword here.
robertsconley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 12:34 AM   #43
WingedKagouti
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
A key distinction, because had the 22-yr history of third-party publishing under the OGL been covered under trademark law, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Either WotC would have defended breaches aggressively 22 years ago, or the industry would have looked on and said "then I guess you should have defended it 22 years ago."

Copyright doesn't go away by not defending it, so if WotC, the owner, manages to convince a judge/jury/arbiter that somehow anything that quacks like D&D is in violation (good luck with that, but it's possible to envision it going that way), the entire OGL-based publishing industry is left having to find something new to do.
The OGL grants a license (it's in the name Open Game License) to use the trade dress, trademarks and to some extent copyrights for the D&D brand under certain conditions. As long as you adhere to those conditions, Hasbro/WotC can't sue (successfully) for misuse but they're also not in danger of losing their trademarks/trade dress from that usage.
WingedKagouti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 02:11 AM   #44
Ashtagon
 
Ashtagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
The OGL grants a license (it's in the name Open Game License) to use the trade dress, trademarks and to some extent copyrights for the D&D brand under certain conditions. As long as you adhere to those conditions, Hasbro/WotC can't sue (successfully) for misuse but they're also not in danger of losing their trademarks/trade dress from that usage.
My understanding is that use of trade dress, trademarks, and copyrights are not generally allowed under the OGL. There are limited exceptions in that everything that is written in the SRD document can be used, which includes some things that might otherwise be covered by trademark and copyright law. But there's nothing that enables use of WotC's trade dress.

Last edited by Ashtagon; 01-12-2023 at 02:23 AM.
Ashtagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 07:58 AM   #45
robertsconley
 
robertsconley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
But there's nothing that enables use of WotC's trade dress.
You are correct in the sense of how the product looks. But there is another aspect of trade dress that protects the specific arrangement of text that copyright doesn't protect.

This part is considered unsettled by the courts. Thus for a small publisher create problems unless there is something like a system reference document and a license allow its use.
robertsconley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 09:57 AM   #46
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
It has been pointed out that if the OGL 1.0a is revoked then the publishers are no longer bound by it's restrictions. And they are free to take the game mechanics can't be copyrighted approach (with advice of an attorney) and release products that prominently state.

"Compatible with One D&D".

Revocation appears to be a two edge sword here.
This was the old TSR approach wasn't it? I recall that a lot of people published "compatible with" material, but few if any ever got formal recognition...
The Colonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 10:25 AM   #47
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
It has been pointed out that if the OGL 1.0a is revoked then the publishers are no longer bound by it's restrictions. And they are free to take the game mechanics can't be copyrighted approach (with advice of an attorney) and release products that prominently state.
They're able to do that now too -- just don't release under the OGL. It's what people did before the OGL existed. The problem you'll have is a bunch of unsettled law which will be expensive to get hashed out and might go against you.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 11:01 AM   #48
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

This article by the Electronic Frontier Foundation is actually kind of a fun read.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/0...-trap-creators
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 01:38 PM   #49
mehrkat
 
mehrkat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Austin Texas
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

I think the real issue is that all Hasbro has to do is keep appealing the decision until whatever entity that tries to contest the license runs out of money. Even a class action suit with every publisher would be a drop in the bucket for Hasbro to just bury. Now whether they chose to sue is another argument but they could simply bankrupt every company that dares to disobey their overlord.

I suspect most publishers will just choose to stop producing content. It may suck to be unemployed but the can be either unemployed or be unemployed and broke and in enormous debt.

Its a standard tactic of corporations and wealthy people to just destroy people who don't go along.
__________________
He stared out in the distance to see the awesome might of the Meerkat war party.

Last edited by mehrkat; 01-12-2023 at 03:39 PM.
mehrkat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 11:43 PM   #50
robertsconley
 
robertsconley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: GURPS Lite and a Open gaming license?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mehrkat View Post
Its a standard tactic of corporations and wealthy people to just destroy people who don't go along.
You know people keep saying that. I think it is fighting the last war talk.

Don't get me wrong, Wizards may put up a hell of a fight. But it is not going to turn out the way everybody thinks it will. I don't know whether the "little guy" like myself in this scenario will achieve victory.

But as it is turning out money is not everything. Rather there is a certain point where throwing more money into the pot isn't going to get you an advantage.

So you focused on the legal effect. Sound good, we are talking IP whether we can use or not and so on. But what if say 65% of the current gaming audience said well "screw it". We are out. We are going to play that game.

Not because we are all one hive mind. Because there are so many people commenting on this. Laying out the known details and you find that even if half are true, it is like "ick, I don't want to deal with a company like this."

And since this is something we do for fun as players. Since we got slammed with the changes wrought by the internet early and hard. All of this is sitting on the Internet shelves ready to be picked up and tried with a click and a few bucks.

And none has the overhead of other forms of entertainment. A few books and you are good to go for months of rich and varied entertainment.

Then on top of all this you got "game mechanics can't be copyrighted". Stuff that different but can use the old material 'as is". And so on.

Not any of one of these is decisive. But together means it is a new battlefield that demands new tactics. Some of the old tactics may work and some may not.
robertsconley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ogl, open gaming license

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.