[AtE] Heirloom tech?

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Incidentally the primary source of low tech "high" power is the water wheel. Hydroelectricity is much simpler than solar or steam plants. People tend to forget about it a lot.

I didn't forget, I'm just ignoring it for the moment.

My queries as expressed upthread are driven by my need to quickly develop a setting for an AtE campaign. I intend to set it in a semi-arid / sub-humid clime (aka Australia), in the middle of a 100km wide plain. There are mountains to the South (the Grampians) and a range of hills to the east (the Pyrenees). If necessitated by PC wanderings, I'll plonk a hydro/micro hydro set up in both/either.

[(E)]

Solar panels could survive if they were not in use, possibly in storage or covered by an apocalyptic dust storm.

Some fuel cells might last as well. Especially ones that were designed for stationary use.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by (E)

Solar panels could survive...

Just enough for the occasional warlord to have as a status symbol, perhaps.

Originally Posted by (E)

Some fuel cells might last as well. Especially ones that were designed for stationary use.

I'd forgotten about them. The trick would be the collection and storage of the hydrogen. Thoughts?

[Anders]

There are fuel cells that run on ethanol or methanol.

[Luke Bunyip]

Total aside; light bulbs.

[Kromm]

Fuel cells are not long-lived. My undergraduate school produced two high-profile fuel-cell researchers who continue to work in the field today. I was privileged to sit in on their research, and I have a friend who remains in the field.

If you get 10,000 hours out of a fuel cell – any kind – you're doing well. This isn't a technology that would provide you with endless power . . . you'd be looking at ~1.2 years of continuous use, or perhaps 15-20 years of life in a car used mostly to commute to/from work. Then you'll be stuck trying to replace catalysts, which isn't just a matter of finding a lump of platinum. Real-world catalysts are synthetic materials that use particulate metal deposition to produce a high effective surface area.

Solar cells degrade more in use, but even in protective wrappers, decay begins at the moment of production. This is usually cited at 1% per year. So after 75 years, assume 1/4 the original efficiency.

I'm with malloyd: Hydro.

Obviously, you can switch on cinematic "slow decay" or even "no decay" rules that protect any technology you want to be a plot device. Just be aware that fuel cells and solar cells don't enjoy that benefit in the real world. One of the biggest real-world hurdles facing both is the need to dispose of or recycle a fair quantity of environmentally unfriendly stuff – and while we're more worried about what's used to manufacture these things now, when they're relatively young tech, the bigger problem is what these items decay into, because they do decay and in fact seem to decay faster than originally estimated.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Obviously, you can switch on cinematic "slow decay" or even "no decay" rules that protect any technology you want to be a plot device.

Though if you are going to go with a cinematic technology anyway, you might as well just pick whatever one best fits the theme you are aiming for. Cinematic wind turbines, or superdurable combustion engines that last forever and don't require anything but fuel alcohol or coal dust, or direct nuclear-electric conversion cells you can keep running by just swapping out unenriched uranium plates or whatever are just as fair as everlasting solar panels.

Though I suppose a solar thermal system - using mirrors to boil water - would be pretty durable too.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Obviously, you can switch on cinematic "slow decay" or even "no decay" rules that protect any technology you want to be a plot device.

As we say down here, "Yeah... nah". Decay and retrotech is the flavour I'm after.

Also, ta muchly re: the heads up on the fragility of fuel cells. Given the requirements for generating and storing hydrogen, ditching them is a no brainer.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Though if you are going to go with a cinematic technology anyway, you might as well just pick whatever one best fits the theme you are aiming for.

Theme? I'm aiming for "...everything breaks down".

Originally Posted by malloyd

... I suppose a solar thermal system - using mirrors to boil water - would be pretty durable too.

Noice. If there's one thing that my setting has, it's sunlight.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm with malloyd: Hydro.

Iffy in the intended setting. Supplementary microhydro might be viable, but the abundant resource in the setting is IR, so malloyd's suggestion above is potentially more viable.

[DAT]

Depending on when/how far in the future the cataclysm occurs, there are a couple interesting items under development as we speak. One in particular is the US DoD’s micro-nuclear reactors that are to be air transportable in 40’ containers, produce 1-10MWe, and be on/off button simple to start. They also don’t melt down and can run without water cooling. One of the ideas is to have a number of them on standby in inert environment pods for deployment as needed.

So a scenario you could have, is the PCs find a large crashed cargo plane sitting out in the middle of the desert (or it emerges from a lake that has started going dry/being drained). Pilots and crew are dead from the crash landing, and there is some marginal salvage in the cockpit and crew areas. But filling up the back is a large (8’x10’x40’) metal box that weights in at about 40-tones (if they have a way to try to move it), with some impressive locks that will take a lot of effort to bust through. Once the very determined salvagers open the box, they are confront by a small closet size room, which they will get to see briefly before passing out from the off-gassing oxygen-free storage gas. After they wake up they will find simple setup instructions for attaching a diesel generator (which they won’t likely have access to) or the emergency solar panels (provided in a side compartment) to start the 2MWe-MNPG. If they follow the instructions, they will have at least 3 years (running full out 24-7, 365) of more power than they could every use.

[dcarson]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Solar cells degrade more in use, but even in protective wrappers, decay begins at the moment of production. This is usually cited at 1% per year. So after 75 years, assume 1/4 the original efficiency.

I'm with malloyd: Hydro.

Hydro is your best bet.

However even small amounts of power by current standards can make major improvements in lives. So a two megawatt community solar plant that by our standards powers powers 350 houses can at ten percent provide 200 kilowatts and gives one 1000 watts to 200 homes. The savings on fuel for lighting and some cooking is huge. Probably not spread evenly, power a community bakery with a goos chunk of it and such.