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Old 04-11-2020, 07:27 PM   #1
beckerc
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default readying a grabbed weapon

If I grab a weapon lying on the table or on the ground, do I also have to Ready it to prepare to use it? This question came up from reading an old thread in the forums and comparing it to Martial Arts 104.

Kromm wrote at:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=116683

Second 1: Assume a kneeling posture next to the item. This calls for a Change Posture maneuver. See p. B383. While kneeling, you may try any defense at -2, but since you don't have the weapon yet, you can't use it to parry.

Second 2: Ready the item while standing up. This calls for a Ready maneuver. Per p. B366, no roll is required to pick up a weapon that's just sitting there . . . just say "I pick it up." Per p. B364, you may stand up as the "step" part of your Ready. At this stage you're standing and have full defenses, and can parry with the weapon you just readied.
-----
Second 1: Change Posture to kneel
Second 2: Step and Ready to grab the weapon, ready it, and stand
-----

Martial Arts 104 says:
"Readying a weapon from the ground normally takes two
Ready maneuvers: one to kneel or crouch and grab it, one to
prepare it for combat."
-----
Second 1: Step and Ready to kneel/crouch and grab the weapon
Second 2: Ready the weapon
-----

Does a weapon have to be Readied if you have just grabbed it from the ground or a table or when you accept a weapon from someone (B382)?

As a side question, can you pick up a weapon from the ground in a crouching position? I think B383 does not allow that.

Thanks for any clarification! I may easily be misunderstanding the rules here.
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:19 PM   #2
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

"Take a Ready maneuver to pick up or draw any item and prepare it for use"

One Ready maneuver does both of those things. I'd say that means picking up a weapon from a table with a Ready maneuver makes the weapon Ready for next turn.
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Old 04-12-2020, 06:12 AM   #3
beckerc
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

So if Ready allows you to grab a weapon and prepare it for use, then you could grab a weapon from the ground in a single turn and use it the next turn, which seems to contradict MA and Kromm.

Turn 1: Step and Ready: Instead of Step change to kneeling from standing (B364 -- without using a Change Posture) and grab and ready the weapon with a Ready maneuver.
Turn 2: Attack

Is that how everyone plays this?
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Old 04-12-2020, 06:44 AM   #4
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

No, because grabbing from the ground involves changing your position, too, unless you're already positioned to reach things from the ground.

If you're already in a position to grab a weapon, then Ready covers both grabbing it and holding it in the correct grip to make an attack.

Obviously, if you're not already in a position to grab the weapon, you have to Change Position or Move first, whichever is appropriate to the situation.
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Old 04-12-2020, 07:15 AM   #5
beckerc
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

Thanks Stormcrow, I'm trying to understand this but still don't see it. Instead of taking a Step forward, can't I go from standing to kneeling (B364):

You can switch between kneeling
and standing (only) as the “step” portion
of any maneuver that allows a
step – you don’t need Change Posture
for that. This is instead of using the
step to move.

And once I am kneeling use the Ready maneuver to grab and ready a weapon in a single turn? I appreciate your comments, I just don't see why this is barred in the rules. Thanks.
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Old 04-12-2020, 12:29 PM   #6
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by beckerc View Post
Thanks Stormcrow, I'm trying to understand this but still don't see it. Instead of taking a Step forward, can't I go from standing to kneeling (B364):

You can switch between kneeling
and standing (only) as the “step” portion
of any maneuver that allows a
step – you don’t need Change Posture
for that. This is instead of using the
step to move.

And once I am kneeling use the Ready maneuver to grab and ready a weapon in a single turn? I appreciate your comments, I just don't see why this is barred in the rules. Thanks.
I think it's less meant to be "barred in the rules", and more that the rules assume you want to be standing to use a weapon.

So IMO, yeah, you could Ready and use a weapon from a kneeing position; you'd just take whatever penalties are appropriate.
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Old 04-12-2020, 12:34 PM   #7
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

Right. If all you need to do to reach the weapon is to kneel, that can count as the "step" portion of your Ready maneuver.

You're standing over a weapon on the ground. On your turn, you choose to Ready. You "step" by kneeling, then grab the weapon and make it ready to use, and you remain in the kneeling position until your next turn.
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Old 04-12-2020, 01:03 PM   #8
beckerc
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

Oh right, of course a player would want to be standing under normal circumstances. I forgot that.

But at least if you have a ready weapon on Turn 1, you will be able to use it to parry on that turn (unlike MA and the thread I quoted which don't leave you with a ready weapon on that turn), and then on Turn 2 go from kneeling to standing (to replace a Step B364) with an Attack.

I think Step and Ready lets you kneel, pick up a weapon, and ready it and then Step and Attack lets you stand and attack.
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Old 04-12-2020, 01:44 PM   #9
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

Quote:
Originally Posted by beckerc View Post
Kromm wrote at:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=116683

Second 1: Assume a kneeling posture next to the item. This calls for a Change Posture maneuver. See p. B383. While kneeling, you may try any defense at -2, but since you don't have the weapon yet, you can't use it to parry.
I think Kromm is citing B383's "If you are standing, you must first take a Change Posture maneuver
to kneel," but B383 seems to overlook another option from B364...
You can switch between kneeling and standing (only) as the “step” portion of any maneuver that allows a step – you don’t need Change Posture for that. This is instead of using the step to move.
MA98 reiterates it works both ways:
Dive forward to go from standing to kneeling, crawling, or lying prone. This counts as your entire step if making an Attack or Committed Attack.
I'm not sure why it only specifies those 2 maneuvers... Defensive Attack / Ready / Concentrate are also maneuvers which allow a "Step", per B364 they should be able to use it too, right?

Kromm isn't unaware of the rule though since he does cite it in the 2nd portion...
Quote:
Second 2: Ready the item while standing up. This calls for a Ready maneuver.
-----
Second 1: Change Posture to kneel
Second 2: Step and Ready to grab the weapon, ready it, and stand
-----
I expect B364 and Kromm's post probably used Change Posture as the first maneuver probably thinking you can't get two "free" kneel/stand stand/kneel transitions in a single maneuver...

But you're still probably better off using something other than a Change Posture to kneel. Like say... if you're not going to attack, then you could be taking a Ready or a Concentrate?

I had thought MA98 might also allow a Move or All-Out Defense because I remembered a Movement Point option, but again this only seems to be for All-Out Attack or Move and Attack...

MA98's "You don’t need a Change Posture maneuver to assume a lower posture in order to grab, grapple, pin, shove, slam, or strike at reach C." does appear in the combat section... so maybe the omission of Move/Defense is because those aren't combat?

That wouldn't really explain Expanded Combat Maneuver's ommission of Defensive Attack though...

If we had something like a "Commited Ready" (the -2 to get an extra step is offset by you taking the +2 to hit option) getting 2 steps (knee,grab,stand) in exchange for reduced defences seems like one reasonable possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beckerc View Post
Martial Arts 104 says:
"Readying a weapon from the ground normally takes two Ready maneuvers: one to kneel or crouch and grab it, one to prepare it for combat."

-----
Second 1: Step and Ready to kneel/crouch and grab the weapon
Second 2: Ready the weapon
-----
"Step and Ready" sounds like something from the original 3e MA...

But this phrase on MA104 does sound like the much more reasonable thing to begin with compared to B383. You get a free step from a Ready, so if you are already in range of the weapon, you may as well use the step from your ready maneuver to kneel so that you can end your turn with your hands on that weapon.

If you're NOT in range of the weapon though, then you'd need that step to get in range or else the Ready can't grab it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beckerc View Post
Does a weapon have to be Readied if you have just grabbed it from the ground or a table or when you accept a weapon from someone (B382)?
RAW probably not. It only takes 1 ready maneuver to draw a weapon from a scabbard, after all.

I just like to deviate that and non-canon house-rule yes because it is possible to be holding a weapon in an non-readied state (partial disarms), so I like the idea of it taking potentially longer to fumble between the state of merely grabbing a weapon and bringing it to bear in a combat-ready state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beckerc View Post
As a side question, can you pick up a weapon from the ground in a crouching position? I think B383 does not allow that.
I don't think so, but considering how All-Out Attack (Long) involves placing a hand on the ground with possibly just a crouch instead of a kneel, it does feel like it ought to be in the realm of possible.

MA97's crouch is different from the standard crouch though, it involves a DX roll where a crit fail causes a fall, and the requirement of a supporting hand in contact with the ground.

It's actually kinda confusing how to deal with the posture state of someone at the end of AOA(Long) since it has that different requirement from the usual "crouch" variation of stand. Like how to transition out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
You're standing over a weapon on the ground.
On your turn, you choose to Ready.
You "step" by kneeling,
then grab the weapon and make it ready to use,
That sure sounds cluttered though eh? Like 2 progressions.

When I think of the idea of grabbing a dropped gun for example... I usually think of it in 2 distinct progressions

1) I'm just trying to get ahold of the gun so that the enemy can't get ahold of it first. I could be grabbing whatever part is most easily available (like the barrel) and not necessarily the handle, or having my finger over the trigger
2) actually getting my hand on the handle and my finger inside the trigger guard, ready to shoot, and pointing it forward

Page 12 of Technical Grappling also recognizes that distinction between taking action to hold a weapon and taking action to ready it:
If you succeed in taking a weapon or object away from a foe (see Gimme That!, p. 13), you will need to take a Ready maneuver before you can wield it.
Same with page 13:

Once you break your foe’s grip, he drops the weapon.
If you have it grappled, however, you retain control;
you can drop it as a free action
or take a Ready maneuver to wield it yourself
Although the strange thing is... it doesn't seem like you need to "ready" a grappled weapon if you are using TG14's "Don't Shoot Yourself":
Roll vs. the highest of weapon skill or your best grappling skill, taking control penalties for your foe’s Grip CP.
Grip CP might be no penalties at all (TG12 requires 1/2 the ST requirement to keep it ready, but an un-readied weapon is still not dropped until CP fall below zero) meaning as long as you have a decent unarmed grappling skill, you could roll against full Guns skill without needing to take a Ready maneuver to ready the weapon...

Which seems kind of strange. I'm wondering perhaps if Douglas Cole didn't explicitly say but intended us to assume this follows the standard rules for attacks, where you'd have to have the required CP on the weapon to have it ready (1/2 ST req 1H or 2/2 ST req 2H) to use this option?

One other TG confusion for me is this...
TG13 "Active control and the shock from pain or injury both count as reducing Grip CP"
TG14 "His Grip CP are unaffected by active and referred control;"
Probably I'm prone to thinking rule-float when these are very context-specific: active control penalizes Grip CP for the purpose of determining if a weapon is dropped (CP going negative), but not for other things (keeping them in a Ready state, applying a penalty to hit when attacked by someone who's grappled your weapon)

I guess I don't full understand TG13's "Gimme That" rules... is it maybe talking about MAXIMUM grip CP? IE if you suffer -1 to ST from Active Control then your MAXIMUM grip CP is reduced, which could also reduce your current if your current is higher than whatever your maximum is reduced to?

It seems like reduction of max CP would not reduce current CP though.
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:38 AM   #10
beckerc
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: readying a grabbed weapon

Plane, thanks for the helpful and detailed response. You raise a lot of good questions even beyond mine. I agree with you and like the idea that grabbing something from a table or floor or having it handed off to you doesn't automatically make it ready. So on that count, I think I'm back to 2 turns before a weapon is in hand, ready, and the character is standing. That'll be my house rule for now.

I know that trying to plot second-by-second details for something as complicated as fighting and moving is bound to break down on some level. But I don't know of any other system that has even tried to allow so much detail and so many possibilities.
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