Damage

[Randalthor66]

Maz, first of all thanks for the page references in the 3e books, I know, I know, I tried to get the GM to use 4th, but he has the 3rd books and wasn't willing to shell out the $$ for the new stuff. (He is a poor college student.)

The reason I mentioned speed is because it seems as though the game is trying to be all detailed in one area, but totally overlooks another. And I believe that if you are going to be detailed, then be detailed in as much as you can. I will look into the unbalancing aspect of weapons.

Here's the main disconnect with thrust & swing damage: the fact that over 90% of your swing attacks will be made at around 50% strength, while the reverse is true for thrusting. If we are talking about using a baseball swing, I agree, it will have a higher base damage than a thrust - once it connects. But, it is much too slow to use in actual combat. If I had a longsword/epee and you had a battle-axe, the second you "wound up" to take your swing, I would stab you. And by the time your weapon got around to anywhere near me, I would have stabbed you 3-4 times. The only time you swing with full strength is when they cannot attack you for whatever reason (surprise, stunned, asleep, etc..), or when you are willing to sacrifice yourself for the goal of whacking the crap out them.

With the hits and vitals, I was making a dig at the HP system - which I don't like. I prefer to use an injury-type system where when you hit in such a fashion, it says the damage done, like: "pierced thigh, movement restricted, negative mod to defense," etc.. Hit points are ancient, primitive, and a fairly, well, sophomoric method of dealing with damage, imo. (Unless they truly reflect the damage capacity of the whole body, in which case many more are needed.) Plus, I don't like seperate rolls for attack and damage, the success-level of the attack should have a DIRECT baring on the damage dealt. (This does 2 things for me: 1) Adds realism, and 2) speeds things up.)

Again, with the thrust/damage multiplier, the damage is so little that the multiplier just doesn't seem to really matter.

I will look at the Martial Arts book, hopefully it will help me.

[SuedodeuS]

It's a rather simple matter to reposition most swinging weapons for a "full"-power swing (a truly full-power swing gives up defenses, of course; this is one that doesn't do so), making it only take a little bit longer to pull off the attack than a thrust. An opponent isn't going to be able to capitalize on this speed difference unless he's waiting for it. 4e Martial Arts has rules for Stop Hits, which is where you attack an enemy as he is attacking you, taking a risk to take advantage of the temporary hole in his defenses. A thrusting character is at an advantage in such situations. Similarly, if two characters' Waits are activated at the same time, or two people are facing off and attempting to draw and strike first, the thrusting character is again at an advantage. Under normal GURPS turns, however, the speed difference is small enough not to make much of a difference.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

With the hits and vitals, I was making a dig at the HP system - which I don't like. I prefer to use an injury-type system where when you hit in such a fashion, it says the damage done, like: "pierced thigh, movement restricted, negative mod to defense," etc.. Hit points are ancient, primitive, and a fairly, well, sophomoric method of dealing with damage, imo. (Unless they truly reflect the damage capacity of the whole body, in which case many more are needed.)

I'm not sure if 3e has them but 4e definitely has crippling injury and dismemberment rules.

A typical person has no chance of dying from HP loss until they take 20 points of injury, heroic characters will usually survive far more than that (unless the HP system is massively different between editions).

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

Plus, I don't like seperate rolls for attack and damage, the success-level of the attack should have a DIRECT baring on the damage dealt. (This does 2 things for me: 1) Adds realism, and 2) speeds things up.)

I don't see how you could put both rolls together in GURPS without
*reducing* the realism dramatically.

[cltchrn]

I've a fair amount of experience sparring with a shinai unarmored. No matter how you look at it, swinging always hurts more than thrusting. I've taken a full force thrust with perfect form (kenjustu) to the gut. I definitely felt it, but it doesn't hurt near as bad as taking a hit from the tip to the gut.

In reality, I make 90% of my swung attacks at about 80% strength. The force of a swung attack comes from your legs, hips and arms—primarily arms.

It's more difficult to put my full strength into a thrusted attack. The force of a thrusted attack comes also from your legs, hips and arms, but primarily your legs and hips.

I know the writers of GURPS do extensive research in order to justify the balance of the system. This is a simple explanation, but I hope it helps.

~cltchrn

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

Here's the main disconnect with thrust & swing damage: the fact that over 90% of your swing attacks will be made at around 50% strength, while the reverse is true for thrusting. If we are talking about using a baseball swing, I agree, it will have a higher base damage than a thrust - once it connects. But, it is much too slow to use in actual combat. If I had a longsword/epee and you had a battle-axe, the second you "wound up" to take your swing, I would stab you. And by the time your weapon got around to anywhere near me, I would have stabbed you 3-4 times. The only time you swing with full strength is when they cannot attack you for whatever reason (surprise, stunned, asleep, etc..), or when you are willing to sacrifice yourself for the goal of whacking the crap out them.

This I completely disagree with. What you describe here as a "swing" is an All Out Attack. If you make 3-4 attacks while I attack you they must be made at somewhat like 20% power because (as you previously described) to get the full power behind a thrust you need to put all your weight behind it and step into the attacker. This takes just as long as a swing.

Stop trying to compare different weapons an use them as an argument. Take similar weapons and compare damage.

For instance, compare how fast you can stab and how fast you can swing with a knife. And remember to put the same amount of power (or lack of) behind.

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

With the hits and vitals, I was making a dig at the HP system - which I don't like. I prefer to use an injury-type system where when you hit in such a fashion, it says the damage done, like: "pierced thigh, movement restricted, negative mod to defense," etc.. Hit points are ancient, primitive, and a fairly, well, sophomoric method of dealing with damage, imo. (Unless they truly reflect the damage capacity of the whole body, in which case many more are needed.)

It is direct damage capacity. That's why bigger objects have more HP.

And you do have much more HP. Being reduced t o0 HP doesn't kill you, it merely means you have a chance of falling unconscious.

Here is how it works if you have 10 HP.
Lost 7 hp = halve move and dodge.
Lost 10 hp = Roll HT check each turn to stay concious.
Lost 20 HP = roll a HT check to see if your still alive.
Lost 30 HP = roll a HT check to see if your still alive.
Lost 40 HP = roll a HT check to see if your still alive.
Lost 50 HP = roll a HT check to see if your still alive.
Lost 60 HP = your dead
Lost 110 HP = body is completely destroyed (unless the damage is because of stufff like arrows or spearstabs which wouldn't normally "destroy" a body but 'just' deals a lot of damage.

As you can see 1 HP also means a lot more as it counts 6 times before your "auto-dead".

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

Plus, I don't like seperate rolls for attack and damage, the success-level of the attack should have a DIRECT baring on the damage dealt. (This does 2 things for me: 1) Adds realism, and 2) speeds things up.)

This has nothing to do with realism. It's a convenient abstraction for games that do not have the detailed level of hit-locations that GURPS have but it's not at all realistic. No matter how good I am with a sword I can't chop down a tree in one blow. Being skilled doesn't mean I deal more damage. Being skilled means I know where to hit you and that I have the ability to do so.
This is represented by being able to target Hit Locations . You take a penalty to hit but deal more damage. The neck for instance means cutting attacks does double damage instead of +50%, after DR.
Vitals is x3 for impaling (and bullets).
The head changes ALL type of damage to doing x4 dam!


And even then, unarmed skills such as Karate and Boxing DOES increase your damage slightly based on your skill.



Your right it speeds up the game. In fact a single attack, defese, damage roll, subtracting DR and calculating penetrating damages multiplier... can take some time.
But you can't both get details and fast gameplay, IMO. That said there exist several houserules of how to make it faster.

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

Again, with the thrust/damage multiplier, the damage is so little that the multiplier just doesn't seem to really matter.

If I stab your vitals for 4 damage you take 12 damage.
If I swing for 5 damage to your torso, you take 7 damage... how is that not a huge difference?

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

I will look at the Martial Arts book, hopefully it will help me.

As mentioned the 3e doesn't' have all the added details that 4e does.

[cltchrn]

Originally Posted by Maz

The neck for instance means cutting attacks does double damage instead of x50%, after DR.

I'm sure you intended this, but it ended up confusing:
Cutting damage to the neck is x2 instead of the usual x1.5
x50% would be x0.5 or half damage.

~cltchrn

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

Change that weapon to a spear.. Also, you know all those movies showing the quarterstaff fights with big sweeping motions? Bunk. You use a staff much like you use a spear, with thrusting attacks to joints and sensitive areas. You do that for 3 reasons:1) Speed, 2) accuracy, & 3) reach. The only time you do a big swing is if they are stunned or have no idea you are about to attack them.

Right, because nobody ever won a fight with a swing attack. If you think quarterstaff fighters ran around poking at someone with their staff like it was a spear, you are sorely misinformed. There is plenty of room between grabbing the ends of your staff and swirling it like some epic kung fu fighter and delivering a huge blow, and poking someone with a stick. The typical staff-fighter attack grasps near the middle and swings in a short arc to hit at one undefended point (often followed by an attack at another point).

You seem to envision all swing attacks as All-Out, Telegraphic attacks. They needn't be so, and often aren't. You can easily make a Defensive Attack while swinging, for example, and swordsmen often do.

The problem here is the damage is so much less that you will be lucky to get a +1 extra damage after armor. So, that rule is of little use.

That's rather the point of armor, isn't it? To keep people from jamming pointy bits into your guts. You'll note that knights didn't generally go after one another with knives (unless they had their foe on the ground and could take their time to really work it), but with large swinging weapons like broadswords and warhammers, because those generate more force, which allows you to penetrate your opponent's armor.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

With the hits and vitals, I was making a dig at the HP system - which I don't like. I prefer to use an injury-type system where when you hit in such a fashion, it says the damage done, like: "pierced thigh, movement restricted, negative mod to defense," etc.. Hit points are ancient, primitive, and a fairly, well, sophomoric method of dealing with damage, imo. (Unless they truly reflect the damage capacity of the whole body, in which case many more are needed.) Plus, I don't like seperate rolls for attack and damage, the success-level of the attack should have a DIRECT baring on the damage dealt. (This does 2 things for me: 1) Adds realism, and 2) speeds things up.)

Again, with the thrust/damage multiplier, the damage is so little that the multiplier just doesn't seem to really matter.

I will look at the Martial Arts book, hopefully it will help me.

If you feel this way, then you should probably be playing Rolemaster, rather than GURPS.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by Randalthor66

The reason I mentioned speed is ...
Here's the main disconnect with thrust & swing damage: the fact that over 90% of your swing attacks will be made at around 50% strength, while the reverse is true for thrusting. If we are talking about using a baseball swing, I agree, it will have a higher base damage than a thrust - once it connects. But, it is much too slow to use in actual combat. If I had a longsword/epee and you had a battle-axe, the second you "wound up" to take your swing, I would stab you. And by the time your weapon got around to anywhere near me, I would have stabbed you 3-4 times. The only time you swing with full strength is when they cannot attack you for whatever reason (surprise, stunned, asleep, etc..), or when you are willing to sacrifice yourself for the goal of whacking the crap out them.

Upon what do you base these assertions?

[Randalthor66]

Maz: By saying it is an abstraction you are saying it is less realistic. I know that the better I hit you...the better I hit you. Simple.

Mailanka: I don't envision the swing attack at being an All-Out attack, the game does by making its base damage so much higher. Also, I would rather be playing Rolemaster, but I am not running the game. (Though, to be fair, I think I would prefer HARP. ;-) )

Joseph Paul: Tai Chi Chuan, Tae Kwon Do, Fencing, and a little Spec Ops hand-to-hand training. Plus, actual use in a life-or-death fight. (They were using knives (tantos) and certainly weren't trying to swing them at me, but thrust them into me.)