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Old 11-01-2010, 05:12 PM   #41
Rocket Man
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting British North America

While the nature of "treason" is an interesting discussion, it seems a bit tangential to the thread itself. Shall we return to discussion of the British North America that resulted after the failure of the Great Rebellion?

(I wouldn't mind discussing the other topic in GenChat ... if we can all be very careful about flame. It's a delicate issue, especially since there are a number of principled leaders who could be described as "traitors" by at least one side of a conflict.)
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:15 PM   #42
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting British North America

Umm no. I don't agree. Treason is treason whether or not you win. I don't like sliding scale definitions.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:28 PM   #43
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting British North America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
While the nature of "treason" is an interesting discussion, it seems a bit tangential to the thread itself. Shall we return to discussion of the British North America that resulted after the failure of the Great Rebellion?

(I wouldn't mind discussing the other topic in GenChat ... if we can all be very careful about flame. It's a delicate issue, especially since there are a number of principled leaders who could be described as "traitors" by at least one side of a conflict.)
Sounds good to me, Rocket Man.

So, the OP's idea...

It seems to me that GURPS AH has pretty well covered that ground with Cornwallis, although a variation on the theme would always be welcome.

What makes the Elseworld's scenario different is not a total British victory over the rebels, but the reason why: a super powerful alien on the British side.

I need to read this comic, methinks.
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:44 PM   #44
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting British North America

The Empire would still turn into the Commonwealth, Because as far as I can tell Gandi and India's distance had far more impact on that then the american revolution and nor really set up be either the American or French
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Old 11-01-2010, 05:59 PM   #45
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting British North America

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Of course, after the first revolt was crushed in 1837, some of the patriotes crossed into the US, declared independence, and regrouped for another try.
And got their heads handed to them again. About all they really managed to do was settle the question of whether Prescott or Kingston would be the major English-speaking British port between the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River, by attacking Prescott while not attacking Kingston. (It's a pity, because Prescott's in the prettier natural location IMHO.)

In the AH under discussion, both towns would be reasonably important ports in the northeastern North American freshwater trade, although Montreal would still be larger than both put together because it's at the mouth of the Ottawa River.

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I suspect that the government run schools in most of Canada do not put a positive spin these men or their cause. I wonder how the schools in Quebec teach this history?
Of course not; they were rebels. It would make as much sense for our schools to glorify them as it would for people in the AH under discussion to glorify Washington et al - namely, no sense at all. They are quite rightly a historical footnote.

(And I don't know how, or even if, Québec schools teach this part of history. Ontario schools don't bother with historical footnotes - I didn't learn about the 1839ers at all in school.)
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
And got their heads handed to them again. About all they really managed to do was settle the question of whether Prescott or Kingston would be the major English-speaking British port between the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence River, by attacking Prescott while not attacking Kingston. (It's a pity, because Prescott's in the prettier natural location IMHO.)

In the AH under discussion, both towns would be reasonably important ports in the northeastern North American freshwater trade, although Montreal would still be larger than both put together because it's at the mouth of the Ottawa River.



Of course not; they were rebels. It would make as much sense for our schools to glorify them as it would for people in the AH under discussion to glorify Washington et al - namely, no sense at all. They are quite rightly a historical footnote.

(And I don't know how, or even if, Québec schools teach this part of history. Ontario schools don't bother with historical footnotes - I didn't learn about the 1839ers at all in school.)
Maybe if Quebec one day becomes a free and independent country...
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:09 PM   #47
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Default Re: AH Gurps setting British North America

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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
(I wouldn't mind discussing the other topic in GenChat ... if we can all be very careful about flame. It's a delicate issue, especially since there are a number of principled leaders who could be described as "traitors" by at least one side of a conflict.)
I started a new thread in GenChat so as not to derail this one.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:15 PM   #48
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I started a new thread in GenChat so as not to derail this one.
Noted. Thanks. I've posted on it.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:10 PM   #49
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The Empire would still turn into the Commonwealth, Because as far as I can tell Gandi and India's distance had far more impact on that then the american revolution and nor really set up be either the American or French
On the other hand, if Britain still holds North America, there is probably a lot less interest in investing in India.

But the center of gravity of the Empire won't stay put forever. Ultimately the territory around the Great Lakes - the coal and natural gas of western Pennsylvania, the breadbasket of Ohio, Indiana and central Illinois and the mineral reserves of Mesabi and around Sudbury - is *going* to generate a superpower. Tighter immigration controls and anti-colonial industrialization policies may hold this off a little longer, but I don't see any divergence as late as the 18th century stopping it from happening before the end of the 20th. At that point the Empire has either conceded the region(s) some political autonomy, the elites of Detroit call the shots for the Empire as much as the ones from the Midlands, or the Army of the Ohio burns Old London.
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Old 11-01-2010, 10:30 PM   #50
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Default Native, um, "Americans?"

IIRC the UK Prime Minister declared the "Proclamation Line" in 1764. Allegedly along the watershed at the peak of the Appalachians, it set up the interior of British North America as a preserve for the Native Americans.

It was still, again IIRC, officially the British position in 1777. So the industrialized midwest (the Old Northwest region) might never have happened without a major shift in British policy.

It might be that after a failed colonial rebellion (1775-1777) the Brits might be willing to enforce it.

Of course, there wasn't the wherewithal to police a border that, with twists & turns, was probably some two thousand miles long. However, if Lord North is feeling ambitious, he might be willing (in exchange for special deals in furs and deerskins) to arm the Native, um, North American subjects of His Majesty to give them the ability to keep Brother Jonathan out. Or rig it so only the families of those who proved themselves loyal to the Crown got access to this rich interior.

Also of course, either of these might well spark a second revolt.

On a related note, IIRC the Crown was thinking (in OTL) that once the rebellion was crushed the colonies would benefit from having a powerful aristocracy on hand to keep the plebeians in line and under Royal rule. So you might see the Count of Maryland, the Viscount of Rhode Island, a Duke of New Jersey, etc. Their estates could be formed from those confiscated from nasty traitors (that Mount Vernon might make a good summer cottage) and the wealthy and influential loyalists might well appreciate a raising to the gentry (so long as all parties quietly understood that these social heights were only to be flaunted on the western side of the pond). Lord Fairfax might like to be the Earl of Virginia, for example; he seemed to have that thought at times . . .

They would be expected to raise loyalist regiments to ensure that any effort to repeal the result of 1777 would be crushed on the spot. And, being hated by many of the surviving rebel minions, would have no choice but to be loyal to the Crown -- or face very bad consequences.
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