Homeline moves "up"

[Tom Mazanec]

One of the reasons Centrum is trying to move echoes "up" in quanta is to create an action-reaction effect and push Homeline "down" in quantum, towards lines like Merlin-1, Reich-5 and Shikaku-Mon.
What if they are wrong and instead, there is a gravitational-pull effect bringing Homeline closer to Centrum?
How would the Time War proceed?
Will the mistaken Centrum scientists be in any trouble?

[Varyon]

I'm only somewhat familiar with IW, but if I'm not mistaken Homeline and Centrum are only one quantum apart from being able to directly travel between them. If that's the case, the two getting closer will likely result in the nuclear destruction of one, if not both, of their home-timelines - as soon as one figures out their mortal foes are within striking distance, you can probably expect a fleet of conveyors to carry nuclear payloads to the opposing timeline.

If that isn't the case (if it is, the scientists are likely to die in the ensuing nuclear exchange), you can probably expect some severe reprimands for the scientists who screwed up and suggested such a course of action. As for the Time War, you'll probably see a lot more frequent and more deadly skirmishes between the two powers, as there is now a lot more overlap between the Timelines they can reach, and Homeline can reach those that were previous hotspots more readily. The Centrum may retreat for a bit to try and figure out where they screwed up, but I wouldn't count on it.

[PTTG]

I suspect that the Time War would freeze. No new actions would take place and both sides would retract their forces, lest the trigger a war. It would be much like the tensest parts of the cold war

This certainly is interesting, I'll have to think about the long-term repercussions. It would probably become a diplomatic game of the highest stakes imaginable...

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by PTTG

I suspect that the Time War would freeze. No new actions would take place and both sides would retract their forces, lest the trigger a war. It would be much like the tensest parts of the cold war

This certainly is interesting, I'll have to think about the long-term repercussions. It would probably become a diplomatic game of the highest stakes imaginable...

The thing is if you think about it too hard the war stops making sense in the first place. What are they even fighting over anyway? There is no shortage of worlds, and neither side is even remotely close to exploiting all the ones they know about, let alone the ones they are still discovering. They could split the multiverse by treaty on the Q7/8 boundary and neither of them appear to loose anything significant.

I'm not even sure the two worlds (as opposed to their interworld services) are all that much enemies. Homeline really ought not be unified enough to even have a fixed policy. And from Centrum's point of view that looks to be a good strategic move - Homeline's exploitation policy is so idiotic compared to Centrum's efforts at integration that a truce looks to be all to Centrum's advantage - give it a few decades for them to successfully bring some of those lines they are penetrating fully into their civilization and their actual multiworld state will outclass Homeline's single world plus small-enough-to-keep-secret trade network by enough orders of magnitude there's no contest.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'm not even sure the two worlds (as opposed to their interworld services) are all that much enemies. Homeline really ought not be unified enough to even have a fixed policy. And from Centrum's point of view that looks to be a good strategic move - Homeline's exploitation policy is so idiotic compared to Centrum's efforts at integration that a truce looks to be all to Centrum's advantage ...

You're looking at it from the outside, without taking ideology into account.

In Centrum's way of thinking, not being unified is a recipe for disaster - just look at Centrum's history. They have a moral obligation to unify Homeline along the Centran model, whether they like it or not.

In Homeline's case, the Centrans are keeping them from doing what they want to do, which is make money. This has to be stopped.

Think back to before the 1990s, and picture Centrum as the USSR and Homeline as the USA, and this will make more sense.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by malloyd

The thing is if you think about it too hard the war stops making sense in the first place. What are they even fighting over anyway?

They're fighting over Centrum's inability to tolerate a potential attacker. Homeline must be eliminated before it eliminates Centrum. That being said, Homeline and Centrum are not in fact fighting a war any more than Britain was fighting a war with Russia in 1900. They are simply pursuing covert activities to interfere with each other's ambitions and keep each other from achieving a strategically position. Homeline is interfering with Centrum's ability to take over new worlds. Centrum is subverting echos in the hope of shifting Homeline so far away that by the time that they are encountered again, Centrum will have an unbeatable size edge. Shifting it closer and knocking it out with a pre-emptive nuclear strike would be almost as good but riskier.

I'm not even sure the two worlds (as opposed to their interworld services) are all that much enemies. Homeline really ought not be unified enough to even have a fixed policy. And from Centrum's point of view that looks to be a good strategic move - Homeline's exploitation policy is so idiotic compared to Centrum's efforts at integration that a truce looks to be all to Centrum's advantage - give it a few decades for them to successfully bring some of those lines they are penetrating fully into their civilization and their actual multiworld state will outclass Homeline's single world plus small-enough-to-keep-secret trade network by enough orders of magnitude there's no contest

.

So why would Homeworld agree to a "truce" that has no benefits for them with another party that has already shown that it will eliminate them as soon as is practical?

[Randyman]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

So why would Homeworld agree to a "truce" that has no benefits for them with another party that has already shown that it will eliminate them as soon as is practical?

Why would any power enter into an agreement on such terms? History shows multiple examples of such behavior.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Randyman

Why would any power enter into an agreement on such terms? History shows multiple examples of such behavior.

Exactly.

Being shoved into the same quantum with Centrum would put likely Homeline in a peculiarly perilous situation. The comparison with USA/USSR is weak, because the USA wasn't operating under a rule of hiding its own existence from the rest of the world where the Cold War competition played out, and the entire counter-USSR effort wasn't being maintained primarily by one tiny organization out of the whole society.

Once they had relatively easy access to Homeline, Centrum could easily cut deals with national governments, corporations, powerful individuals, bypassing Infinity entirely. It wouldn't even be that hard.

As for a bad treaty or deal...it happens all the time. Dangle profit for businessmen, ideological bait for true believers, offer peace and coexistence for the naifs. I could name half a dozen examples from real history, I can think of instances of it from current events in the real world.

If Infinity won't let BigCorp. exploit the resources and profit opportunities of Timeline 93, Centrum could offer to let them do it it on the sly if they help them undercut Infinity. If Infinity won't let Country Z assist Country Z' on Timeline 45, Centrum could offer to help them do that in exchange for favors.

Infinity would have a much harder time using the same tactics on Centrum, even with easy access within one quantum. Nor could Infinity readily go for an 'open competition' mode, revealing Homeline to the other timelines and taking full advantage of Homeline's assets and advantages, because that too would undercut Infinity's position. Once that limit was gone, there'd be no reason for the national governments and other organizations to tolerate Infinity's special status.

Would the profit motive be enough to get Homeline players to sacrifice their long-term interest to the quarterly bottom line? For a lot of them, you bet it would. All of a lot business interests would see is a profit stream, they wouldn't even notice the hook. Even those who did see the hook might find themselves forced to bite because their competitors are biting.

[Randyman]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

As for a bad treaty or deal...it happens all the time. Dangle profit for businessmen, ideological bait for true believers, offer peace and coexistence for the naifs. I could name half a dozen examples from real history, I can think of instances of it from current events in the real world.

MICE
Money
Ideology
Conscience
Ego

Any one is sufficient. More than one is golden.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Randyman

Why would any power enter into an agreement on such terms? History shows multiple examples of such behavior.

No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Exactly.

Being shoved into the same quantum with Centrum would put likely Homeline in a peculiarly perilous situation. The comparison with USA/USSR is weak, because the USA wasn't operating under a rule of hiding its own existence from the rest of the world where the Cold War competition played out, and the entire counter-USSR effort wasn't being maintained primarily by one tiny organization out of the whole society.

Once they had relatively easy access to Homeline, Centrum could easily cut deals with national governments, corporations, powerful individuals, bypassing Infinity entirely. It wouldn't even be that hard.

As for a bad treaty or deal...it happens all the time. Dangle profit for businessmen, ideological bait for true believers, offer peace and coexistence for the naifs. I could name half a dozen examples from real history, I can think of instances of it from current events in the real world.

If Infinity won't let BigCorp. exploit the resources and profit opportunities of Timeline 93, Centrum could offer to let them do it it on the sly if they help them undercut Infinity. If Infinity won't let Country Z assist Country Z' on Timeline 45, Centrum could offer to help them do that in exchange for favors.

Infinity would have a much harder time using the same tactics on Centrum, even with easy access within one quantum. Nor could Infinity readily go for an 'open competition' mode, revealing Homeline to the other timelines and taking full advantage of Homeline's assets and advantages, because that too would undercut Infinity's position. Once that limit was gone, there'd be no reason for the national governments and other organizations to tolerate Infinity's special status.

Would the profit motive be enough to get Homeline players to sacrifice their long-term interest to the quarterly bottom line? For a lot of them, you bet it would. All of a lot business interests would see is a profit stream, they wouldn't even notice the hook. Even those who did see the hook might find themselves forced to bite because their competitors are biting.

Now hold on there. The proposal didn't involve Homeline enterprises getting any profit and wasn't the product of Homeline being shoved into the same quantum. It was just a "truce" in which (supposedly) Homeline wouldn't do any operation in a sphere that would be designated as belonging to Centrum and in return Centrum wouldn't do any operations in a sphere belonging to Homeline, a deal neither side even has the technology to enforce.

Now if Homeline got slingshot into the same quantum as Centrum...they still wouldn't make such a deal because Centrum wouldn't offer it. They'd just nuke Homeline. Problem solved.