Homeline moves "up"

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It would matter if projectors still worked after the shift. Projectors are required for cross-quantum movement and there are only two places where they are known to work. If you moved Homeline from where it is this might change.

Yeah, would projectors work as before? Being able to use all of the same coordinates, plus the new Q8 ones, would be the best case scenario. Maybe projectors couldn't work going out until Homeline's new coordinates were found. Maybe they couldn't work at all.

Infinity would have an advantage among the Echoes, since now they could be reached via in-quantum conveyors. Though the Echoes would also now be a lot more open to non-Infinity actors on Homeline, anyone who had a conveyor.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also, if Homeline moves closer to Centrum then it won't be able to access Quantum 3 via projector. They'd have to use Nexus Portals too.

Homeline wouldn't be able to access Reich-5 or Merlin.

Moving to Q6 would make all of the dangerous and weird Q3 parallels inaccessible - but that would also mean it would be harder for those worlds to access Homeline.



One idea of something that might happen if Homeline moves to Q6: Shikaku-Mon becomes parachronic capable like Homeline & Centrum. It's at the same time as both worlds, and now would be outside of Homeline's direct reach - indeed, at the same distance that Homeline and Centrum had been to each other.

Shikaku-Mon could even be the reason that Centrum screwed up. If the scientists engineering Homeline's move down a quantum didn't know about Shikaku-Mon, or didn't think it mattered, it could have been some sort of 'buffer' or 'bounce barrier' that moved Homeline up a quantum instead.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Democracy is no particular threat to Centrum. The USSR didn't collapse because it couldn't compete with democracy per se, it collapsed because of the failure of its own economic model, in competition with the Western/American one. America proved to be able to maintain a sufficient military power to checkmate the USSR while still outcompeting them in other areas.


...

Actually, it's cannon that Centrum can't even believe Democracy can be real. They can't accept that Homeline has any Democracies. Further, the simple fact that Homeline's powers compete and no one is serously trying for world conquest also confuses Centrum. They believe Homeline is run by Secret Masters.

Handing a double agent a few copies of some conspiracy theory books to a double agent, to pass on to Centrum, would keep their analysts' eyes spinning for years.

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Actually, it's cannon that Centrum can't even believe Democracy can be real. They can't accept that Homeline has any Democracies. Further, the simple fact that Homeline's powers compete and no one is swerously trying for world conquest also confuses Centrum. They believe Homeline is run by Secret Masters.

Handing a double agent a few copies of some conspiracy theory books to a double agent, to pass on to Centrum, would keep their analysts' eyes spinning for years.

I always wondered how far Centrum's disbelief in democracy could last. After facing off against Infinity/Homeline for years, Interworld would have to see that democracy seemingly can work. To say nothing of seeing working democracies in parallels. Of course Interworld wouldn't want this idea spreading to the general Centrum population (and accepting that democracy can work could even be harmful to one's career, if the higher-ups knew).

There might be a 'democracy can work, but X isn't ready for it yet,' where X are lesser developed nations/worlds - that's an issue in foreign policy in the real world. I bet Infinity/Homeline has to deal with that belief - some non-democracies like China say that pushing for democracies on other worlds is dangerous, while the United States or European Union says it is a prerogative, and Infinity has to balance.


But before Centrum could possibly accept democracy working, they would first have to accept that capitalism can work. It's much more prevalent on Homeline and certainly on the parallels. It fits better with Centrum's meritocracy ('the best company wins') and even evolution. And it's way easier to deal with from a parachronic outsider's perspective.

Though the Anglo-French Empire, pre-Last War, had to have some version of capitalism (likely very aristocratic, like eighteenth century France or England), and Centrum thinkers would believe that it led to The Last War.


I guess, essentially, Centrum's official belief is that any system can seem like it's working, but all eventually lead to a Last War - unless history follows Centrum leadership.

(ignoring that there's as much evidence a world led by Centrum will never have a Last War as a world not led by Centrum would - none, since Centrum hasn't been active long enough)

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Actually, it's cannon that Centrum can't even believe Democracy can be real. They can't accept that Homeline has any Democracies. Further, the simple fact that Homeline's powers compete and no one is swerously trying for world conquest also confuses Centrum. They believe Homeline is run by Secret Masters.

Handing a double agent a few copies of some conspiracy theory books to a double agent, to pass on to Centrum, would keep their analysts' eyes spinning for years.

No doubt. :grin:

For that matter, the older leadership cadres of the USSR thought that American democracy was mask over a secret control center. Even allowing for the oligarchic overtones that periodically overtake American politics, they were simply blinding themselves.

But that still doesn't make democracy a problem for Centrum, because the nature of the competition protects them from its strengths. They aren't two nation-states on one planet, competing openly for alliances, resources, the loyalty of their populations, etc.

As long as Infinity is determined to maintain the secret, there isn't much in the way of competition for loyalty in the other time lines. Secret democracy can't really stand as an alternative to Whatever. Likewise, there isn't any 'Radio Free Centrum' to transmit Homeline thinking to the subjects of Centrum, or any other really useable such channel for agitprop (the truth can be agitprop, too).

Infinity would have to let the Secret end, and give up most of its privileged position on Homeline, to turn the Homeline/Centrum struggle into a Cold War scenario of open competition. Also, as I noted upthread, Homeline isn't the USA, or even the anti-Soviet alliance the USA anchored, it's an Earth rather like ours. Which means Centrum would not be competing with a unified democratic polity but a mess of competing polities, some of which might get on well enough with Centrum, and some of which are probably arguably worse than Centrum.

The comparison doesn't hold.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

No doubt. :grin:

For that matter, the older leadership cadres of the USSR thought that American democracy was mask over a secret control center. Even allowing for the oligarchic overtones that periodically overtake American politics, they were simply blinding themselves.

But that still doesn't make democracy a problem for Centrum, because the nature of the competition protects them from its strengths. They aren't two nation-states on one planet, competing openly for alliances, resources, the loyalty of their populations, etc.

As long as Infinity is determined to maintain the secret, there isn't much in the way of competition for loyalty in the other time lines. Secret democracy can't really stand as an alternative to Whatever.

It doesn't need to. What Homeline backs in opposing Centrums subversion efforts is not loyalty to Homeline (which let's face it, would be nonexistent even if they went public), but loyalty to their own polities. I mean most of those worlds out there are nowhere near ready to buy democracy even if Homeline had it to sell.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It doesn't need to. What Homeline backs in opposing Centrums subversion efforts is not loyalty to Homeline (which let's face it, would be nonexistent even if they went public), but loyalty to their own polities. I mean most of those worlds out there are nowhere near ready to buy democracy even Homeline had it to sell.

Though that can be a tough sell too. For both sides. Many worldlines out there aren't ready for ideological states, or even nationalism either. Admittedly by the time the strong English speaking states Centrum is most interested in show up, at least the nationalism is starting to appear, but it's easy to imagine Centrum penetration operations getting enormously frustrated with the way their pawns keep abandoning the goal when somebody offers them a momentarily better deal, and then coming back to ask for a bigger bribe to switch back.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by fchase8

I always wondered how far Centrum's disbelief in democracy could last. After facing off against Infinity/Homeline for years, Interworld would have to see that democracy seemingly can work. To say nothing of seeing working democracies in parallels. Of course Interworld wouldn't want this idea spreading to the general Centrum population (and accepting that democracy can work could even be harmful to one's career, if the higher-ups knew).

There might be a 'democracy can work, but X isn't ready for it yet,' where X are lesser developed nations/worlds - that's an issue in foreign policy in the real world. I bet Infinity/Homeline has to deal with that belief - some non-democracies like China say that pushing for democracies on other worlds is dangerous, while the United States or European Union says it is a prerogative, and Infinity has to balance.

There are more than a few European Intellectuals, both on the Right and the Left, that deny that the USA is now, or could ever be, a democracy in any sense. Ideological commitment is immune to lived experience. Centrum could easily deny even the most obvious observed facts.

But before Centrum could possibly accept democracy working, they would first have to accept that capitalism can work. It's much more prevalent on Homeline and certainly on the parallels. It fits better with Centrum's meritocracy ('the best company wins') and even evolution. And it's way easier to deal with from a parachronic outsider's perspective.

Though the Anglo-French Empire, pre-Last War, had to have some version of capitalism (likely very aristocratic, like eighteenth century France or England), and Centrum thinkers would believe that it led to The Last War.


I guess, essentially, Centrum's official belief is that any system can seem like it's working, but all eventually lead to a Last War - unless history follows Centrum leadership.

(ignoring that there's as much evidence a world led by Centrum will never have a Last War as a world not led by Centrum would - none, since Centrum hasn't been active long enough)

Yes Centrum, like any other non-Open society that needs to keep its worldview to survive/function, would find a rationalization.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It doesn't need to. What Homeline backs in opposing Centrums subversion efforts is not loyalty to Homeline (which let's face it, would be nonexistent even if they went public), but loyalty to their own polities. I mean most of those worlds out there are nowhere near ready to buy democracy even if Homeline had it to sell.

Agreed. I most cases all Homeline is fighting for is that the locals stay free of Centrum control. In some places, where the alternatives are vile and nasty, they don't bother with that.

I mean if Centrum has taken over a WWII Britain, along with America and the USSR, would you really want Homeline to support Hitler?

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Agreed. I most cases all Homeline is fighting for is that the locals stay free of Centrum control. In some places, where the alternatives are vile and nasty, they don't bother with that.

I mean if Centrum has taken over a WWII Britain, along with America and the USSR, would you really want Homeline to support Hitler?

Maybe in my mirror universe timeline where the allies are evil and the axis is good... Actually, such a game might be very interesting. Homeline has to figure out how a (not evil) Germany could possibly win WWII...

[fchase8]

Infinity would normally support democracies not just for humanitarian reasons, but because they're harder to be manipulated by a few backroom actors - i.e., Centrum.

Infinity vs. Centrum might not be U.S. vs. USSR, but in a cold war parallel, Infinity would likely back the U.S., Centrum the USSR (language problem nonwithstanding). It would be a lot easier for Centrum to infiltrate the Kremlin and pull strings there than have to deal with presidential elections.


The problem would be if there is an 'enlightened despotism' that Centrum backs - non-democratic, easy to infiltrate & influence, but doing good. That is kind of the case with Gernsback - U.S.A. is still segregated, Europe still holds empires, but they are doing a lot of techno-good (under the leadership of the even less democratic, and even more Centrum-like, World Science Council).

Or take today's world. Centrum would like the E.U. with its bureaucracy and democratic deficit, as opposed to the insurgent political parties in various nations.