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Old 06-24-2018, 04:21 PM   #31
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Missile Spells

Staff of Power can now be raised to hold 32 ST for an IQ 16 wizard. Won't this change the dynamics of spells which scale the affect according to how much power you put into them? There aren't TOO many spells that actually increase in power with ST. Maybe there shouldn't be any.

The different power levels of creation spells have specific spells that subsume their weaker versions. Why not have missile spells at different levels of power like that, like 1-die Fireball, 2-die Fireball, etc.?

I think you could do this for all of the variable-power spells.

Also, why doesn't Megahex Sleep include sleep like that?
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:33 PM   #32
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Default Re: Missile Spells

In the original Wizard game concept, Missile Spells were self-controlling in that they cost the caster actual damage (wounds) to cast. Once the "hits" taken by casting were reduced to fatigue, the entire balance mechanism for Missile Spells sort of went by the wayside. Oh, not so much for an Arena battle (since if you pass out, your opponent can stroll over to you and cut your throat), but in the metagame of a campaign, their power and utility became somewhat more unbalanced.

So, to my mind, the problem isn't so much with the power of the spells, as it is with how the spells are powered.

How to fix that, I don't really know; unless you lengthen the fatigue point recovery period from 15 minutes to an hour or more in order to force the Wizard player to consider his resource management issues more carefully.
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Old 06-24-2018, 08:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: Missile Spells

Just a thought, why not make more powerful spells increasingly more costly?
Eg
1d 1point
2d 1+2 points
3d 1+2+3 points
4d 1+2+3+4 points

And so on.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:19 PM   #34
David L Pulver
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Default Re: Missile Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Listening to the playtest here but trying to keep it easy - I see some good house rules that I would not try to write up.

Here are my notes now:

Missile spells – cap at 3 ST input, but increase each spell by 1 hit, so Magic Fist becomes 1d-1, Fireball 1, Lightning 1d+1. MF does a minimum damage equal to ST put into it; it never fails completely.
I like this approach. I used the cap at 3d. Magic Fist was always underused. The greater damage should make the "knockdown" effect more useful.

* Wizards Wrath could keep the same damage but be "spell piercing" - a Reverse Missiles spell does not reverse it but instead subtract, say, 5 hits of damage.

* I would like to see two higher powered spells to replace Wizard's Wrath:

* explosive fireball (higher IQ but same cost) spell that does 1d/ST to the target and all in the hex and 1d-2/ST to everyone adjacent. Should cost the same 1 ST per point but same IQ as the old Wizards Wrath.

* daggers of light (or ice, or whatever) that is same IQ as fireball but each ST point gives you two attacks doing 1d-2 each that are rolled to hit and damage targets separately and can freely attack multiple targets or the same target. Thus, 3 ST daggers of light producing six daggers is maximum 6d-12 damage (average 9) compared to a 3 ST fireball that is 3d (average 10.5).

It also strikes me that the Mnoren knew magic and technology, and had visited realms with spaceships, etc. Therefore they would have encouraged mages to invent a laser spell, and thus an even higher IQ "Ray of Light" or whatever is logical. I would suggest this spell be 1d damage/die, unable to penetrate Darkness, fog, smoke, etc., and do half damage to someone with Blur, and none to Invisibility, but also Dazzles the target who is struck.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:30 PM   #35
David L Pulver
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Default Re: Missile Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
Just a thought, why not make more powerful spells increasingly more costly?
Eg
1d 1point
2d 1+2 points
3d 1+2+3 points
4d 1+2+3+4 points

And so on.
I think this tends to make wizards a bit too much "one shot johnnies" who would get off their single make-or-break spell and then sit out the encounter.

Whereas a wizard with 3d for ST 3 usually gets the option for at least 3-4 turns of continuous action, during which time he may continue zapping with one spell, but may also find the tactical situation dictates some variation.

Speaking of this, I really loved the intro to WIZARD with the magic duelling academy and set one up in my campaign based on it. This meant I ran a lot of magic duels.

To encourage diversification of spell arsenals I invented the following spell:

Spell Resistance (T)
The wizard can specify ONE specific thrown or missile spell THAT HE KNOWS and make the target immune against it. The effect lasts for 12 turns. The spell costs 2 ST if the spell is IQ 13 or less, 3 ST if it is IQ 14-17, or 4 ST if IQ 18+.

(A similar magic item created a relatively inexpensive ONE USE amulet that shattered after blocking one use of the incoming spell.)

I found that this spell's existence had significant beneficial effects:
* It encouraged gathering intelligence on your target
* It encouraged mages to retain more than one missile spell, rather than getting rid of Magic Fist and Fireball after learning Lightning
* It encouraged mages to probe their enemies defenses with low damage spells rather than unleashing a big Death Spell or Lightning all at once
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:10 AM   #36
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Default Re: Missile Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
... Do we NEED Wiz Wrath at that point, or is it overpowered?
Probably not a question of needing it...

And it is IQ 18... though, if now an IQ 18 wizard may have a Staff of Power which when charged can give 36 extra strength... yikes! Of course, some Words of Command seem more powerful in many circumstances.

Personally, I consider unlimited-ST missile spells including Wizard's Wrath less annoying than powerful healing spells, Trance, Crystal Balls, Charms, attribute adders, industrially-producible Wishes, Curses, Astral Projection, Shapeshifting, Insubstantiality, and Words of Command, though the last few I personally as GM would look at tweaking rather than saying no one in my campaign knows them.

I liked Ty's shift from 1 to 2 points per die after 3, or taking into consideration wizards who may have a staff giving them a lot of ST, Wayne's 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21... suggestion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
An interesting idea that I do not think I will follow up is: MF bypasses armor. If we did that, a 3-die MF might do as much as 15 direct hits. It sure would discourage the turtles, though.
Interesting idea, but Magic Fist is IQ 8, and this would shift the spell from the weakest to one of the best. Maybe add some higher-IQ spell that can do that (lightning does that, sort of, in GURPS).


Other things to consider:

* WIth polearm charge damage nerfed, it's getting harder to hurt high-armor people. Missile spells were one of the main ways to counter high armor, and they won't do as well at that at 3d or 3 even 3d+3. Armor stacks and can include armor, shields, warrior/veteran, armor enchantment, and stone/iron flesh.

* If you do nerf missile spells, will you also nerf Hammertouch in a similar way? That's the one of the remaining ways to do a large amount of damage.

* In considering, remember that ITL page 45 introduces a vaguely specified but pretty powerful fragmentation damage effect (1d or more to everyone within 3 hexes) from hitting stone walls with missile weapons of all types. We used that when we remembered it, but only for lightning. It makes underground missile spell misses a possibly dangerous to friends and/or self.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:33 AM   #37
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Default Re: Missile Spells

A missile spell needs to be charged after activating. So an 8d missile spell takes and extra 7 second for the extra 7d damage. In those 7 seconds, alot can happen while the wizard is charging up.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:36 AM   #38
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Missile Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
A missile spell needs to be charged after activating. So an 8d missile spell takes and extra 7 second for the extra 7d damage. In those 7 seconds, alot can happen while the wizard is charging up.
It seems like maybe you didn't realize you're in the TFT forum rather than the GURPS forum?
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:37 AM   #39
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Default Re: Missile Spells

AH, now I see. My mistake.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:49 AM   #40
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Default Re: Missile Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Listening to the playtest here but trying to keep it easy - I see some good house rules that I would not try to write up.

Here are my notes now:

Missile spells – cap at 3 ST input, but increase each spell by 1 hit, so Magic Fist becomes 1d-1, Fireball 1, Lightning 1d+1. MF does a minimum damage equal to ST put into it; it never fails completely.
Has the problem that it will be very rare to want to cast for less than max (I can spend 3 turns and 3 fatigue to do 3 dice, armor applies 3 times, or 1 turn and 3 fatigue to do 3 dice, armor applies once). Rather than +1 hit per die, might want to make it +1 die, so 1-3 ST does 2-4 dice (or even 0-3 ST does 1-4 dice, free 1d blasts are not likely to break anything).

For comparison, at 3 ST:
Magic Fist: 3-3 = 7.5 hits average. 4-8 = 6 hits average.
Fireball: 3+0 = 10.5 hits average. 4-4 = 10 hits average.
Lightning: 3+3 = 13.5 hits average. 4+0 = 14 hits average.
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