High-Tech issues, real-world equivalencies and questions

[joelbf]

Seals in Vietnam has stats for Ka-bar Mk2, USAF's jet pilot's hunting knife, M7 US military bayonet and MC-1 pocket knife.

WW2 Hand of steal lists the M3 fighting knife, the Ka-bar and the Sykes Fairbairn as (3e) fine large knifes.

Martial Arts Fairbairn Close Combat System has a long writeup on the Sykes Fairbairn, but it doesn't mention quality.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Boobis

Under law enforcement: http://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.asp...=137&CatID=855 .

Gives no weight but areal density: 1.19 lbs/ft squared. Should be in the right ballpark for a vest protecting the front and back of the chest.

Areal density 1.19 lbs. translates into a typical weight of 5-6 lbs. for torso coverage of an adult human, even if we assume that the vest doesn't cover it quite completely.

Which, incidentally, fits typical concealable vests if you check those examples you can find online.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Boobis

Seals in Vietnam has stats for Ka-bar Mk2, USAF's jet pilot's hunting knife, M7 US military bayonet and MC-1 pocket knife.

WW2 Hand of steal lists the M3 fighting knife, the Ka-bar and the Sykes Fairbairn as (3e) fine large knifes.

Martial Arts Fairbairn Close Combat System has a long writeup on the Sykes Fairbairn, but it doesn't mention quality.

Thanks.

The 3e examples were before the Fine (Balanced) designation and the quality designation was indeed missing for the Sykes-Fairbairn.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Ogo

I'm interested in these issues as well, though probably not to the level of detail as the thread starter ; ). First, let me say that I'm not up to speed on the additional writing referenced above and I don't have a pyramid sub, so apologies if this is a dumb question.

But, from what I understand, the designers have a set of formulae by which they translate real world gun and ammo measurements into GURPS stats. Theoretically anyone should be able to look up any gun on wiki or in a catalogue and stat it out. Are those formulae available anywhere?

Basically I'm asking the wizards to let me look behind the curtain, haha...

I forgot to give you the actual number.

GURPS DR 70 = protection from 20d damage = 1 inch of RAH steel.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ogo

Very interesting! And I second this request, if it's not too much trouble.

Anyone who wants the sheet need only PM me with their email address and I'll send them a copy.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I forgot to give you the actual number.

GURPS DR 70 = protection from 20d damage = 1 inch of RAH steel.

RHA for Rolled Homogenous Alloy.

RAH for Robert A. Heinlein steel is _much_ tougher stuff. :)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

RHA for Rolled Homogenous Alloy.

RAH for Robert A. Heinlein steel is _much_ tougher stuff. :)

Ya, ya, ya; the H should have been before the A. ;)

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

RAH for Robert A. Heinlein steel is _much_ tougher stuff. :)

Only if he's not the one writing it. heh

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Do you think that titanium blades could be Fine or Very Fine? High-Tech doesn't specify that they only exist in one quality grade, but I'm not sure that a titanium blade is as good as a high-grade steel one.

Eh. Titanium is strong for its weight, and resists corrosion (and, for the very few to whom it matters, is nonmagnetic). But it's also lighter than steel, so it's not as strong as you might think.. and most importantly, it doesn't harden as well. I could maybe see a Fine Ti knife but Very Fine is pushing it.

Because the quality control and manufacturing methods used to produce such knives are much more expensive than those needed for knives constructed with less exact tolerances?

By TL8, this ought to be a non-issue for all but the cheapest knives, I think.

It is a fact, though, that the vast majority of 'combat knives' are not designed as fighting knives. The ergonomics of using them as tools are much more important to users and designers than the design as a combat knife.

I can't speak to this, as I am not a knife fighter.

But as I said above, 'combat knives' are usually designed to be used as tools on the battlefield.

Um, no. You don't understand.

The typical "combat knife", tool or not, isn't really suited to chopping, prying, or hammering things. Doesn't stop people from doing it, of course, but a number of knives get ruined that way. Knife steels just aren't made for that sort of abuse, especially when the blades themselves are pretty thin so that they cut better and weigh less.

You can get knives that are more survival-oriented, and some of them are seriously heavy-duty. They're also heavy, and most of them have curved blades that are good for chopping or skinning, but not so much for fighting (though I suppose it's better than your fists).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Eh. Titanium is strong for its weight, and resists corrosion (and, for the very few to whom it matters, is nonmagnetic). But it's also lighter than steel, so it's not as strong as you might think.. and most importantly, it doesn't harden as well. I could maybe see a Fine Ti knife but Very Fine is pushing it.

I don't disagree.

Originally Posted by Xplo

By TL8, this ought to be a non-issue for all but the cheapest knives, I think.

Perhaps. It still appears that the vast majority of combat knives are not designed or produced with much attention given to the balance in the hand of the operator.

Knife-fighting is a very rare skill, even in military circles. Most people, even special operation people on deployment, use their combat knives for other things than going Rambo on the opposition.

I'm just trying to find out which knives enjoy a deserved reputation as the exceptions.

Originally Posted by Xplo

Um, no. You don't understand.

The typical "combat knife", tool or not, isn't really suited to chopping, prying, or hammering things. Doesn't stop people from doing it, of course, but a number of knives get ruined that way. Knife steels just aren't made for that sort of abuse, especially when the blades themselves are pretty thin so that they cut better and weigh less.

You can get knives that are more survival-oriented, and some of them are seriously heavy-duty. They're also heavy, and most of them have curved blades that are good for chopping or skinning, but not so much for fighting (though I suppose it's better than your fists).

I'm aware of this.

But there are other tasks than chopping, prying and hammering that a knife is useful for. For example, a sturdy combat knife is used for a myriad of things when rigging improvised traps around a bivouac, preparing demolition charges, eating a field-stripped MRE, making field repairs on damaged load-bearing kit, etc.

For all of these things, a Sykes-Fairbairn knife is less desirable than a solid survival knife. I think it would be fair to give those survival knives a bonus when used as a tool for a given task (subject to the GM's judgment that a knife is a relevant tool for that task).

This explains why real world people often carry a combat knife that is not Fine (Balanced) for combat. It's because the blade design and balance for a knife that's a good tool is mutually exclusive with one that's good for Silent Killing*.

*Of course, compromises exist that are mediocre at both.