[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#32): Damage Resistance, Nictitating Membrane

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It is well known that Kryptonians are invulnerable on Earth, so you probably think that you either need to use magic or kryptonite or to surrender. I think the only reasons that people ever shoot normal guns at the S is a) panic, b) street cred, or c) it could just be some normal idiot in a costume, so might as well.

Neither of the last Els have No Signature, on DR, because it is pretty obvious they are invulnerable when you do shoot them with a rifle, panzerfaust, FAE warhead, ect. Standing unharmed while bullets and explosions bounce of off them is one of the iconic images for these characters, and is an endlessly repeated motif in all media that features them.

I'm not sure that counts. If you meet Superman in his costume, yes, you'll know that bullets won't work. But that's not "visible." If you met him in his Clark Kent street clothes, or wearing only a bathing suit and horn-rimmed glasses at the beach, there wouldn't be anything to tell you he was bulletproof.

*****

No Signature was originally defined for attack powers and only for those. And with an attack power it means both that you can't trace the power to the source by a visible sign, and that you can't tell the power has been used by a visible sign. But you can still see the effect of the power, because the target becomes exhausted, or is wounded, or is knocked down, or falls dead, or something. To say that No Signature prevented that would be to say that it prevented the attack from doing harm, which would amount to nullifying the ability.

With a defense power, the effect is that the target is NOT harmed. To say that No Signature stopped that from happening would be to say that the target had a defense that left them as injured as if they had no defense, and a defense that does not defend IS "no defense." So you have to have the effect of shooting Superman with a heavy machine gun (for example) and having him not be injured. That doesn't count as a signature, any more than people dying when you zap them with your invisible beams that inflict 50d counts as a signature.

But you don't know (assuming you didn't know this was Superman!) what stopped the bullets from killing him. Maybe he was surrounded by an invisible force field. Maybe Barry Allen was there and was plucking the bullets from the air, moving too fast to be seen. Maybe the guy telekinetically deflects the bullets, and you can't see his telekinesis. Maybe he has a skin-tight stasis field. Any of those would produce the same visible result, and because you can't see anything but the bullets not hurting Kent, or trace whatever does it to a place, it fits the description of No Signature. And Kent having impenetrable skin is the same deal: He's not being hurt and you can't tell why.

On the other hand, if he were covered with orange rocks because that's how Kryptonian skins "tan" under a yellow sun, his DR is visible.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Monsters in MH which is where No Signature originated.

Which ones are those? I just did a search of The Enemy (which is a GURPS book) and "No Signature" appears zero times.

It does appear in Champions (the relevant one, not the other one) on DR exactly three times:

• Armor of Faith, where the attacks "just seem to do less damage".
• PK Shield; where it "saps energy" from attacks.
• Demon Spawn: where it appears with tough skin.

All of these cases seem to be that when you attack the protected person, you don't see what is preventing or lessening injuries.

Originally Posted by whswhs

But you don't know (assuming you didn't know this was Superman!) what stopped the bullets from killing him. Maybe he was surrounded by an invisible force field. Maybe Barry Allen was there and was plucking the bullets from the air, moving too fast to be seen. Maybe the guy telekinetically deflects the bullets, and you can't see his telekinesis. Maybe he has a skin-tight stasis field. Any of those would produce the same visible result, and because you can't see anything but the bullets not hurting Kent, or trace whatever does it to a place, it fits the description of No Signature. And Kent having impenetrable skin is the same deal: He's not being hurt and you can't tell why.

You will see and hear the ricochets and in the DC universe it isn't irrational to think "Hey maybe this guy is bulletproof!" (which threatens his Secret). If he had No Signature on his DR you probably wouldn't even think that you were even hitting him.

I'm surprised you are in favor of this, honestly, if you felt this way, why isn't No Signature on DR in Supers where appropriate?

[vicky_molokh]

This came up on the GURPS Discord, and I think it's useful to include this in the discussion of DR, given that it has a non-obvious interaction between Armour Divisor and the Ablative modifier:

Originally Posted by Kromm

You have DR 96, HP 80. Repeated huge piercing attacks (pi++) lower DR as if ablative (footnote, p. B559), to a minimum DR 3. Against a homogenous target like concrete, huge piercing has a wounding modifier of ×1/2 once it penetrates DR (p. B380).

With 2d+2 pi++, you'll average 9 points of damage per second. You'll need 10 seconds to ablate DR 90, leaving DR 6. On the 11th second, you'll put 3 points past DR 6, which will inflict 1 HP, and also ablate down to DR 3. Then you'll be putting 6 points per second past the minimum DR 3, inflicting 3 HP per second, for the next 26-27 seconds. Total time: 37-38 seconds.

With 2d+2(2) pi++, you'll average 9 points of damage per second. But now DR is halved! You'll need five seconds to ablate DR 45, leaving DR 3. Then you'll be putting 8 points per second past half the minimum DR 3, inflicting 4 HP per second, for the next 20 seconds. Total time: 25 seconds.

The main advantage is that if you're boring dozens of these a day on a worksite – say, to pass cable – you're taking 2/3 as long to do it. That's a huge savings in labor. When you're trying to be sneaky . . . well, a rotary hammer isn't the tool for the job! But 2/3 as long to be noticed should be good for reducing whatever bonus the GM gives your opponents for a sustained racket.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You will see and hear the ricochets and in the DC universe it isn't irrational to think "Hey maybe this guy is bulletproof!" (which threatens his Secret). If he had No Signature on his DR you probably wouldn't even think that you were even hitting him.

I don't think that makes sense. If I hold a gun up to Kent's head, and pull the trigger, how am I going to think I didn't hit him? If the gun seems to turn in my hand every time I pull the trigger I think that's going to be a highly visible effect.

"He just fell over dead with no visible injury" is No Signature. So is "His head just exploded." But if a beam comes from someone's eyes and either of those happens, you have Signature.

If I hold a gun to him, and pull the trigger, and the bullet doesn't penetrate, and he's surrounded by a glowing energy field, or his skin looks like rocks or steel or something, you have Signature. But "the bullet just bounced off him" or "the bullet flattened against his skin and fell to the ground" even though he looks like, well, Clark Kent looks to me to be No Signature, if that concept applies to DR. The actual not taking damage is visible, but then in the attack case the actual damage is visible. The two cases seem parallel.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think that makes sense. If I hold a gun up to Kent's head, and pull the trigger, how am I going to think I didn't hit him? If the gun seems to turn in my hand every time I pull the trigger I think that's going to be a highly visible effect.

If you shoot somebody with Armor of Faith, the bullet just does less damage, you don't know why.

If I hold a gun to him, and pull the trigger, and the bullet doesn't penetrate, and he's surrounded by a glowing energy field, or his skin looks like rocks or steel or something, you have Signature. But "the bullet just bounced off him" or "the bullet flattened against his skin and fell to the ground" even though he looks like, well, Clark Kent looks to me to be No Signature, if that concept applies to DR. The actual not taking damage is visible, but then in the attack case the actual damage is visible. The two cases seem parallel.

Then why didn't you do this in Supers?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm surprised you are in favor of this, honestly, if you felt this way, why isn't No Signature on DR in Supers where appropriate?

I have not reviewed what I wrote in Supers. I'm trying to address this on the basis of what is said here. If my arguments here are logically valid, I don't see that it matters if they contradict what I said on another occasion some time ago; at most they might show that I was wrong then. After all, I might not have understood No Signature properly several years ago.

[Kalzazz]

I am now imagining someone loading hollow points in their .40 S&W to ablate a concrete wall faster

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I have not reviewed what I wrote in Supers. I'm trying to address this on the basis of what is said here. If my arguments here are logically valid, I don't see that it matters if they contradict what I said on another occasion some time ago; at most they might show that I was wrong then. After all, I might not have understood No Signature properly several years ago.

I'm comparing what examples we have in GURPS of No Signature on DR (those three in Champions) against the many others that do not have it. The ones in Champions appear to be there so that you can use your DR without it alerting the mundanes.

If you shoot Clark Kent and you know you hit him, that should threaten his Secret, because that is the kind of thing that threatens it in the comics. If he had No Signature on DR and the GM still said it was threatening his Secret, then he's paying for an enhancement that doesn't really do anything for him.

I also think "modifier creep" like this is a bad idea, it makes the game less compatible with itself, makes character generation increasingly baroque, and inflates the costs of traits.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anders

I also think "modifier creep" like this is a bad idea, it makes the game less compatible with itself, makes character generation harder, and inflates the costs of traits.

For once I find myself completely agreeing with sir_pudding's orneriness.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

But I agree, there is no "Disadvantage: Secret" limitation on DR, or any exotic/paranormal trait for that matter.

Correct, and this concept was officially refuted back in this thread, specifically in this post. That said, as Kromm stated here, that doesn't mean houserules to allow it would be completely out of order. That thread could potentially be mined for ideas. If you'd rather not wade through 256 posts of bickering, this post looks to have the most complete build.


...


On the No Signature front, I'd be tempted to basically have two versions of it.

One is "Not Visibly Obvious." For attacks, this means there's no visible beam, projectile, aura around the hand, claws, etc. For DR, this means the character doesn't look armored, but it's not difficult to tell he is with proper testing (e.g. shooting Clark point-blank in the face). This is +20% on attacks, +10% on defenses. Some settings will make the defensive version the default for DR, in which case DR that does make you look armored would have a Limitation.

The second is "No Visible Effect." For attacks, this means the target is wounded, but there's no visible sign of it. A character who is aware such effects exist is at -2 to First Aid or similar to treat the patient (they can work out where the injury is by other clues, but not being able to see it is sub-optimal). A character who is unaware won't treat it properly, but isn't useless - perhaps a -4, and possibly treating their First Aid as though it were from a lower TL. For DR, things get a little freaky - the character will look just as wounded as he should be*, yet he has suffered no actual injury. For attacks, this can be taken on its own (a visible beam that leaves invisible wounds) for +20%, or along with the above version for +10%. For DR, it only makes sense combined with the above trait, and is +10%.

*Mostly, anyway. An attack that should have vaporized him would instead leave him looking severely burned, something that should have cut off an arm will simply leave it with a really deep gash, and so forth.