Running and Engaging

[MGregory]

Brutus is strolling thru the wilderness quite unaware when a lion sprints from behind (full MA) and pounces on him (since that is what lions do).

Would you house rule this as a hybrid shield rush, where the lion can (on a successful "to hit" knock Brutus to the ground and enter HTH despite having moved the full MA?

If not, would Brutus have the first attack (assuming he's strolling along at less than half his MA)?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by MGregory

Brutus is strolling thru the wilderness quite unaware when a lion sprints from behind (full MA) and pounces on him (since that is what lions do).

Would you house rule this as a hybrid shield rush, where the lion can (on a successful "to hit" knock Brutus to the ground and enter HTH despite having moved the full MA?

If not, would Brutus have the first attack (assuming he's strolling along at less than half his MA)?

If I get to house-rule, I'd use something like the GURPS Flying Tackle rules and lion rules from GURPS Bestiary.

In TFT, I would refer you to page 15 of Advanced Melee, where it says "If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move." i.e. The lion gets to initiate HTH during movement, re-rolling any 6's.

In any case, I imagine Brutus was surprised and may not even have had his weapon out, so even if the Lion rolls a 5 and fails to enter HTH, Brutus is in trouble... only if he had a ready weapon, wasn't surprised, and hadn't lost initiative and moved first, would Brutus get a chance to turn around and attack the lion.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by MGregory

Brutus is strolling thru the wilderness quite unaware when a lion sprints from behind (full MA) and pounces on him (since that is what lions do).

Would you house rule this as a hybrid shield rush, where the lion can (on a successful "to hit" knock Brutus to the ground and enter HTH despite having moved the full MA?

If not, would Brutus have the first attack (assuming he's strolling along at less than half his MA)?

Hi MGregory,
The key thing to me is that the lion has moved its full MA. To me that means it has over extended itself and has to wait until next turn to do anything.

However, if I wanted to house rule a few things...

--- Lions may spend 2 fatigue ST (for a 2 hex creature) and sprint. Lions when they sprint get a flat +6 MA. Thus they can go a bit further and still have moved half their MA or less which lets them attempt HTH.

--- I no longer let people go into HTH during the movement phase, unless you 'dive for the legs'. If you dive for the legs, you end up prone no matter what happens, and the "1 Die HTH Defence Roll" gets a +1 modifier. In my campaign in this situation, the Lion would dive for the legs, and enter HTH during movement.

In ItL page 61, it says that lions have an MA of 12. I think that this is too low. They are ambush predators which use sudden burst of speed to hunt. (That is why I suggest giving them +6 MA for short, sudden pounces.) So the main goal of a lion is to use stealth to creep quite close, then use a sudden burst of speed to end things.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

The MA of animals probably wants a second look, or if it stays at Lions 12, Bears 8, Wolves 12, then a designer note about why and how to play them seems in order, since otherwise these seem extremely slow compared to the actual animals compared to humans (not to mention elves and/or people with the Running talent...).

The HTH rules also of course could use some reworking, as a lion, bear, or gorilla has the same chance to get anyone else in HTH (and automatically make them fall down and drop their weapon) as does an unskilled low-ST figure.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Skarg

The MA of animals probably wants a second look, or if it stays at Lions 12, Bears 8, Wolves 12, then a designer note about why and how to play them seems in order, since otherwise these seem extremely slow compared to the actual animals compared to humans (not to mention elves and/or people with the Running talent...) ...

Hi Skarg,
I totally agree. A few seconds on Google says:

-- Lions top speed: 80 kmh
-- Tigers top speed: 65 kmh
-- Humans top speed: 45 kmh.

This suggests (with out any careful analysis), that the MA of lions should be 18 MA, and tigers 14 MA. They can not run at this speed for any length of time, so actually my sprinting rules above look pretty good for them.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Chris Rice]

Rick, the speed you quote for Humans is wayyyyy too high. Usain Bolt was once clocked at just under 45kmh which is the recorded maximum for a human. He is one man in a population of billions with unusual genetics and lots of special training. The speeds for the animals you quote are not for exceptional members of their species but more likely just good, healthy specimens.

However, that's just me nitpicking! It certainly means the animal MA rates mentioned are too low. However, we'd need to be careful increasing them to realistic levels as it might unbalance the game. We should try playtesting with higher levels of movement. It might solve the problem of the Lion mentioned above; with a much higher (more realistic) MA it could still move half and attack as that "half" will be much longer. Maybe that's the way to go.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Rick, the speed you quote for Humans is wayyyyy too high. Usain Bolt was once clocked at just under 45kmh which is the recorded maximum for a human. He is one man in a population of billions with unusual genetics and lots of special training. The speeds for the animals you quote are not for exceptional members of their species but more likely just good, healthy specimens.

However, that's just me nitpicking! It certainly means the animal MA rates mentioned are too low. However, we'd need to be careful increasing them to realistic levels as it might unbalance the game. We should try playtesting with higher levels of movement. It might solve the problem of the Lion mentioned above; with a much higher (more realistic) MA it could still move half and attack as that "half" will be much longer. Maybe that's the way to go.

The actual speeds in close combat of those animals is MUCH lower than their flat-out chase speeds. Grizzly bears make up to 35 MPH (around 56 kph) for short periods - but when in aggressive mode, they tend to be well under 1/4 that (you can outrun the bear if it's swiping at you... but not while defending yourself).

Horses - they can walk literally all day, pausing only for lunch; trot for several hours, canter for many minutes, run at full gallop for a few minutes. They can browse and shuffle literally all day and most of the night...

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Rick, the speed you quote for Humans is wayyyyy too high. Usain Bolt was once clocked at just under 45kmh which is the recorded maximum for a human. He is one man in a population of billions with unusual genetics and lots of special training. The speeds for the animals you quote are not for exceptional members of their species but more likely just good, healthy specimens.

However, that's just me nitpicking! It certainly means the animal MA rates mentioned are too low. However, we'd need to be careful increasing them to realistic levels as it might unbalance the game. We should try playtesting with higher levels of movement. It might solve the problem of the Lion mentioned above; with a much higher (more realistic) MA it could still move half and attack as that "half" will be much longer. Maybe that's the way to go.

Yeah, no, that is NOT just you nitpicking! A human world-record should not be used as the basis of comparison for MA 10, or even for MA 12 (Running talent). (Nor would I say it should even be for an Elf with Running talent at MA 14, but that might be more like it.)

And, the world record for 100m dash, it looks to me, is 9.58s, or 37.58kph, not 45 kph. High school track records seems to be about 13s, or 27.69kph... I'd say that's more like what someone with Running should be compared at. More typical 100m dash times for non-track experts seem to be more like 15s, or 24kph, which I'd call more like MA 10 (probably generous, as most average people aren't even competing in Track - I notice three articles pointing to an average non-athletic human running speed of 18 kph, but we'll assume our typical TFT figures are considered athletic).

Let's see if we use those, if MA 10 vs MA 12 even pans, out... 27.69 / 24 = 1.15, so yeah, actually it does!

(And FWIW, the non-athletic speed comes out to MA 7.5, call it 8. Sounds like something to give non-athletic figures.)

Ok, so if we are comparing an average human at MA 10 and calling it 24 kph, and comparing to Rick's animal speeds in Kph and converting to MA, we get:
Lion 33.33
Wolf 26.67
Grizzly 23.33
Brown Bear 14.58
Tiger 27.08

[zot]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Yeah, no, that is NOT just you nitpicking! A human world-record should not be used as the basis of comparison for MA 10, or even for MA 12 (Running talent). (Nor would I say it should even be for an Elf with Running talent at MA 14, but that might be more like it.)

And, the world record for 100m dash, it looks to me, is 9.58s, or 37.58kph, not 45 kph. High school track records seems to be about 13s, or 27.69kph... I'd say that's more like what someone with Running should be compared at. More typical 100m dash times for non-track experts seem to be more like 15s, or 24kph, which I'd call more like MA 10 (probably generous, as most average people aren't even competing in Track - I notice three articles pointing to an average non-athletic human running speed of 18 kph, but we'll assume our typical TFT figures are considered athletic).

Let's see if we use those, if MA 10 vs MA 12 even pans, out... 27.69 / 24 = 1.15, so yeah, actually it does!

(And FWIW, the non-athletic speed comes out to MA 7.5, call it 8. Sounds like something to give non-athletic figures.)

Ok, so if we are comparing an average human at MA 10 and calling it 24 kph, and comparing to Rick's animal speeds in Kph and converting to MA, we get:
Lion 33.33
Wolf 26.67
Grizzly 23.33
Brown Bear 14.58
Tiger 27.08

A human going up against an animal with such a huge disparity in MA sounds intriguing. I count 15 hexes between the entrances of a wizard map. A lion would be able to cross and attack within the first turn.

These MA values would really change up the arena dynamics of character vs. character and character vs. animal.

I'm all for it!

[Skarg]

A few effects to consider for high-MA figures with rules as written:

* If they win initiative and have you move first, and you don't get your back to something or run far enough away, they can often move around you and get you in the rear for an attack or HTH.

* Advanced Melee page 15 says if they can move in through your rear hex, they can initiate HTH combat during the movement phase.

* If they have higher MA than you, they can initiate HTH with you from the front (so Bear MA going from 8 to over 10-12 is a big balance bump for them, though one that seems fairly appropriate since really who's going to be able to prevent a bear from getting them in HTH by hopping backwards quickly?).

I think SJG would do well to playtest / review mounted combat on a large wide open map in different mixes of mounted and foot figutes, because IME there are some tactics that seem pretty gamey/off to me involving zooming horses around to people's rears, staying well out of range until you win initiative so you can do that, etc.