Improving the Tonfa

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Having said that, here again, in collisions, the speed is more important than the weight.

Not really, Force = Mass X Velocity

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Not really, Force = Mass X Velocity

As I wrote it above, physicists say than when dealing with a collision:

Power = 0.5 x Mass x speed ²

If they are right, speed is much more important than weight.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Not really, Force = Mass X Velocity

That's not Force, that's Impulse. Force = Mass × Acceleration.

Anyway, in GURPS, damage seems to be proportional to the square root of kinetic energy (e.g. dice = (move × HP) ).

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Gollum

As I wrote it above, physicists say than when dealing with a collision:

Power = 0.5 x Mass x speed ²

If they are right, speed is much more important than weight.

To be complete, momentum is conserved, energy need not be. And generally, force is the rate of change of momentum (that's how newton expressed it, actually F = dP/dt, or d(mv)/dt, and since at usual velocities, mass is constant, F = m dv/dt = ma

Energy is usually involved in penetration and some types of injury; it must be involved in deformation.

Momentum seems very, very important in hand weapons. Not that energy isn't, but you can't discount the impact (so to speak) of the MV quantity when using weapons.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That's not Force, that's Impulse. Force = Mass × Acceleration.

Anyway, in GURPS, damage seems to be proportional to the square root of kinetic energy (e.g. dice = (move × HP) ).

Penetration proportional to sqrt of KE. ST-based injury and penetration are related to ST, which is (more or less) the square root of force, or maybe force over a reach-based distance. Hard to say, since the basic formula for ST-based penetration and injury is basically "one point of ST is one point of swing damage extra. Until you exit a certain regime. Then it changes."

[Gollum]

Wow... Thank you for that physics lesson. The formula I quote just came from very distant memory of my secondary school... About 30 years ago...

[Gollum]

I skipped that one... Sorry...

Originally Posted by Sindri

There is an argument that it's important for skills to be fairly constant in broadness. +1 skill level in GURPS Karate gives you +1 to hit any location of any kind of foe wielding any weapon with any karate technique while you're in any posture wearing any kind of equipment. Now martial artists certainly do improve in their general skill no matter the circumstances and some of those will provide things like familiarity penalties but a lot of training does also build around certain assumptions below the level of training for things like targeted attacks so that realistically your general combat ability should probably not only be lower but advance slower than fighting within the context that you trained for. Compared to things like skills handling the sciences combat skills are also already super finely grained.

I fully do agree with you here.

It's even worse! In GURPS, strength is only one basic attribute. In reality, every sport, martial art or other physical activity makes you improve your muscle in a way that would't really fit to another activity. A very good karateka, for instance, would make a very poor climber, runner and vie versa.

GURPS correct that a bit with the optional striking and lifting strength. But even then, a good weight lifter would make a poor karateka. And even if we remain in martial arts, a good karateka would make a poor fencer and vice versa...

All these people do a lot of muscle training exercises... But their musculatures are still very different...

Having said that, GURPS has to be a playable game.

Originally Posted by Sindri

Weapon Master carries too much baggage with it.

This is right too.

Originally Posted by Sindri

I could see an argument for a tonfa being increased to sw +1 cr/thr +1 cr but I just can't see a tonfa hitting as hard as weapons longer than it wielded with both hands.

That is still what I learned. A tonkwa hit harder than a bo... The problem with two handed weapons is that even if you can put more strength in your blows, your move is less free, somewhat hemmed or slowed down, especially when the weapon is very long.

The difference of speed between the bo and the tonkwa when I look the black belt during my kobudo trainings is really awesome.

Originally Posted by Sindri

A metal weapon doesn't automatically hit harder at all. It has better material properties for penetrating armour, is easier to make in certain useful shapes and you can stuff more weight into a convenient shape if you want, but metal absolutely doesn't automatically get a damage bonus.

I fully do agree. The problem of armor is still very important. A tonkwa may be almost as effective as a small mace when hitting a target without armor, its ability to damage a target with armor is obviously not the same.

Originally Posted by Sindri

Weight is very important in determining what damage weapons do.

Yes, especially when the difference of speed is not great (even when it is easily perceptible).

My main problem with the tonkwa damage as they are written in GURPS rules remains the comparison with the light club. It is impossible to give to a light club the impulse and force you can give to tonkwa. Unless I really don't understand what GURPS calls a light club.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Momentum seems very, very important in hand weapons.

A lot of that might just be muscle dynamics; a heavier weapon lets you apply more total force (I wrote about this a while back here). There are also issues of impact dynamics, where a compact striking head produces higher peak force than a rod or blade even if the total energy and momentum is the same.

Originally Posted by Gollum

My main problem with the tonkwa damage as they are written in GURPS rules remains the comparison with the light club. It is impossible to give to a light club the impulse and force you can give to tonkwa. Unless I really don't understand what GURPS calls a light club.

What GURPS calls a 'light club' is actually a rather heavy club.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Penetration proportional to sqrt of KE. ST-based injury and penetration are related to ST, which is (more or less) the square root of force, or maybe force over a reach-based distance. Hard to say, since the basic formula for ST-based penetration and injury is basically "one point of ST is one point of swing damage extra. Until you exit a certain regime. Then it changes."

Well, yeah. Penetration equals damage for normal penetrators (i.e. not APHC or 'bodkin' or armour-piercer blade shape or something like that).

And yeah, ST damage is funny. Needs rescale in the mythical 5e / maybe some Alternate GURPS. Probably will need scaling up HP and firearms damage, since a +1 to ST still needs to provide a meaningful difference to damage (otherwise it's a very disappointing buy).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Weapon Master carries too much baggage with it. ST limited to specific applications in the same manner as the improvements unarmed skill get makes sense..

I'll give you an alternative. We keep hearing about the tonfa's speed in one particular strike. Special strikes that do more damage than basic ones are common in MA. See Uppercut for just one example.

So giving the tonfa +1 damage on this strike only might be a good option. It might change the tonfa from Thrust to Swing. In most grips the tonfa will be doing only Thrust.